forums.bible-truths.com

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Need Account Help?  Email parsonssc@hotmail.com

Forgotten password reminders does not work. Contact the email above and state what you want your password changed to. (it must be at least 8 characters)

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Jacob loved but Esau God "hated"?  (Read 2786 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Foxx

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 146
  • Love doesn't delight in evil but rejoices in truth
Jacob loved but Esau God "hated"?
« on: June 04, 2011, 12:04:52 AM »

So I received an email from someone talking about how in Romans it discusses that God "hated" Esau and that this proves the Calvinistic view limited atonement. But I did a little research on the issue and it's quite interesting. I looked on the forums for anything involving but not much had been brought up about it for a few years it seems.

Romans 9:13  As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

In the book of Malachi, the word that says “hate” is the Hebrew word “sane” (“saw-nay”). This word does not mean the idea of hatred as in to despise or detest but instead means “preferred over”.  The Hebrew language lacks certain subtleties, instead it has a “one or the other” so in English the direct translation is in “hate” but this is not the manner in which “sane” is interpreted. This is important to note because in Hebrew there are other words to describe the feeling of hate as we know it such as:

bazah (despise)

ma’as (to loathe)

to’evah (abominable)

These are all words that mean what our concept of deep seeded hatred would be. And then we have of course what is being used:

sane (preferred over)

Big difference isn’t there? So if God did not “hate” Esau the person what does this mean? Well this verse was written long after Esau had died. God was focusing this on his descendent’s and how Esau was not chosen. But from what was Esau not chosen? Who did our lord Jesus come through? JACOB!

So yes God preferred and had chosen Jacob but this does not mean he hated Esau and now he is burning for all eternity in hell. The Old Testament Hebrew often speaks in antithetical parallelism. This shows not hatred of Esau’s descendants, but the differential between the degree of love given to Jacob and withheld from Esau.

If one person was preferred over another, they were said to be “loved” while the other was “hated.” This apparently has historical proof from treaties of this time period which used the words for love and hate to mean chosen or rejected.

I believe this degree of love is speaking about God’s plan in this life not an eternal one. Does it ever say Esau was tortured in hell because God hated him so much? No, certainly not. Once again the word “sane” is not the same interpretation and does not carry the same significance as what we consider actual hatred in our own time. We can not use this word “hatred” in the same sense as we do now. God has preferred people over others in this world for thousands of years but that doesn’t mean he despises or detests much of his creation. Of course he can make one pot for a glorious purpose or one meant for a common use but that doesn’t mean  our spiritual destinies have been sealed and there is nothing more to the story. As I said in my last response to you, there are other ages that have yet to happen.

So what is the word used in Romans chapter 9:13? It’s ἐμίσησα (emisēsa). It is used only one time in the new testament and guess what? It doesn’t mean hate either! It is translated as “hate” but this was STILL not how it was interpreted by the Jews and other cultures of the time. It was not interpreted in a malicious way, once again this is used in terms of “preference” but guess what? Even then it is still not even speaking about the people, Jacob and Esau, individually! It’s speaking about the Edomites and how God had Chosen Jacob’s descendants to blessed and to be the ones that would bring Christ into the world.

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)

I doubt anyone would actually believe this verse is telling us to literally hate our family. So why would “hate” mean actual despising of another person in the verse in Romans and not this verse? Well, they don't. Neither verse containing this word actually means “hatred” as we know it today. This verse is not translated or interpreted properly, it is the same ideal as to prefer or chose over another, not actual hatred.

Anyway, thats what I found when researching it and I was wondering if anyone had anything to add to this that perhaps I overlooked. Thanks everyone!

God Bless!
Logged
"Intelligence without wisdom and compassion is useless"

Kat

  • Global Moderator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6152
    • facebook
Re: Jacob loved but Esau God "hated"?
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2011, 01:12:22 AM »


Here is an excerpt from the 'Love' Bible study where Ray discusses this to a greater degree.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.0.html -----

Now you say, 'God loves everybody the same.'

Rom 9:13  As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Now, there the Greek can mean to love less by comparison. But it’s a quotation from Malachi 1:2, and in the Hebrew it means hated... get it?

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
v. 17  A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
v. 18  A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
v. 19  A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

“These six things does the Lord hate,” and then it list a proud look and a lying tongue and so on. But then He says, “a false witness” and that’s a person. A false witness is a person that speaks lies and he that sows discord among the brethren. Those are people that do that. But He doesn’t hate, like we hate, because He doesn’t have a carnal mind and we do. When we hate, we hate with our carnal mind. God has no carnal mind, so you can’t draw the same analogy.

When I say I want to do something with the strength of my right hand, you know how limited that is. I can pick up one of these 5 gal. water bottles and that’s about what I can pick up.

But when God says, I’m going to do something by the strength of His right hand, are we even in the same universe? No. Well, if you can see that, why can’t you see it then, when He talks about things that appear to be human emotion like anger, My fury, wrath, and all of that.

So we have contrast here now. There are 2 verses that could be at variances with one another.

Esau I hated... I hate a false witness, I hate those who sow discord among the brethren. But “for God so loved the world,” wait a minute does that include Esau? Does that include the false witness or the one that sowed discord among the brethren? I thought He just said He hated them, now He says He loves them. Is this a contradiction?

We’re getting into some deep stuff here. So is that a contradiction, I hate Esau? I love him so much that I gave My own Son for him. What is that? Is that a contradiction? No, it’s really not. But you do have to understand it.

We’ve stepped out of Sunday School now, and we’re going to a little higher level. You can have this agapao love, for something you hate. What? Yes you can. Proof? God does. He hated Esau, He hates a false witness... He hates people. He doesn’t just hate false witnesses, He hates a false witness, that’s a person, you see.

The Christian world would have you believe, He loves the world sooo much. But the Concordance version has it right.

John 3:16  For thus God loves the world…

Not how much He loved the world, although it was a lot, but that is not what the word said. It does not say, for God loved the world so much, no. It says this is how He loved the world, that’s what it means. He didn’t so love the world, He thus loved the world, in this way and this manner. Now in what manner did He agape the world?

John 3:16 ...He gave His only begotten Son...

Okay. But if you say, God so loved the world, then you are insinuating He has phileo love for the world, right. That He has this affectionate, endearment of friendship with the world, because He so loved the world.  NO!

This is the manner He loved them, He loved them with this agapao love, which has the benefit and future of humanity at heart. Nowhere does it say, God phileo loves the world, or any sinner in the world, mark that. This is too deep for the world, they can’t accept this, the same way they can’t accept that God created evil and uses it often. But we have to deal with what scripture says or you might as well fall under the condemnation of the verses that says, “Because you despise this Word,” (Isa 30:12; Jere 23:17), if you won’t believe what it says.

Granted there is a couple of places that is not translated right, but not that many. That’s why I use the KJV. Even though it has eternal punishment, and there is no such thing as eternal punishment, there is eonian chastisement, two totally different things. Eonian, age lasting chastisement or correction to make you better, is a whole lot different than torture the hell out of you, for all eternality, in fire. I mean these are not two same thoughts, they’re totally antithesis towards one another.

So this is the manner in which God loves the world, with agapao love. A love that is undeserved, they’re not reciprocating. Let me give you another example of agapao love, not phileo love. Agapao love is when they crucified Christ, and He was dying, He prayed to His Father and said;

Luke 23:34  Father forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.

Now that’s agape love. Father these people are blind and deceived, oh they’re fools, and they’re hypocrites, blind fools as they called the Pharisees in Matt 23, none the less. Then as it was such a strong condemnation, on the one hand, on the other hand, He says Father forgive them. Is this a contradiction? No, it’s not. It’s the way God is and we need to be like God.

We can love our neighbor, with an agape love, we don’t need to fellowship, hobnob with them or become part of what they are, in any way, shape or form. When God says, love your enemies... If it said you would have to phileo your enemies, then I would just have to take my 9 pages of notes here, tear them up, throw them away. Close the Bible and say, I have not a clue as to what this thing about love is, not a clue.

But I have checked it out for many, many hours now, and I understand that the Bible does not contradict in this area. God - Jesus Christ, never said you have heard, them of old say, you should hate your enemies. First of all, God never taught to hate your enemies. Well, where did they hear that of old? About five times in the book of Psalms, by David, who went to his death bed hating his enemies, telling his son to kill them and make it bloody. That was King David, not God. But people read the Psalms and so you heard it said. Yes, you did hear it said, but not of God.

But Christ said, but I say unto you, love your enemies - agapao your enemies. Can you love your enemies and hate them at the same time? You say, 'no you can’t, that’s a contradiction.' Well, let’s think about that for a second. Could God hate Esau and love him a the same time? Not only could He, the Bible tells us that, and it shows that He did. He shows more favor to Jacob then He did for Esau. Yet you can find some pretty strong promises and blessings (even though He said I hate Esau), you can find blessings on Esau in the Bible I can show you them.

God said, I hate liars and people that cause discord and everything, yet I gave My own Son for the world. Why? Because I agapao them. God thinks beyond their couple of three score and ten years of hate and criminality. I look beyond that, and I see their future - agapao. Maybe we need to learn to do that too, if we’re going to be like God... right?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, mercy and peace
Kat

« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 01:50:06 AM by Kat »
Logged
Jam 4:14 " whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away."

Joel

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 445
Re: Jacob loved but Esau God "hated"?
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2011, 02:46:11 AM »

I believe we can love our fellow man, but hate their sins, or their ways at the same time.
As Ray said there is much scripture showing that Esau was greatly blessed of God also, after Jacob and Esau were reunited they hugged and kissed each other. They were TWINS after all.

Even Jacob himself is said to have loved Joseph more than all his children. Genesis 37:3
And we all know how God blessed Joseph, and the whole Egypt history story.
But God chose to bring Jesus through the tribe of Judah.

Jesus talking about Love in Matthew 5, shows how God is merciful, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. :)
There is much food for thought in this thread.

Joel
Logged

gmik

  • Guest
Re: Jacob loved but Esau God "hated"?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2011, 07:15:54 PM »

Excellent teaching!!
Logged

Foxx

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 146
  • Love doesn't delight in evil but rejoices in truth
Re: Jacob loved but Esau God "hated"?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2011, 08:23:17 PM »

Very good addition Kat! Thank you! You too Joel!


 :o  :)
Logged
"Intelligence without wisdom and compassion is useless"

markn902

  • Guest
Re: Jacob loved but Esau God "hated"?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2011, 09:26:49 PM »

That is a very good bible study Kat pointed out I have downloaded the audio and listened to it. It is a good listen and I would recommend it if anyone hasnt heard it yet.  :)
Logged

Heidi

  • Guest
Re: Jacob loved but Esau God "hated"?
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2011, 11:57:25 AM »

This post is so timely in my life as I struggle both with hating what someone is doing and saying and yet feeling guilty for having these feelings and thoughts.  Now I understand that I can hate my enemies but I HAVE to agapao them as God commands us to do.

Thanks for being obedient when God placed it on your heart to post for it has truly blessed me!

Heidi
Logged

daywalker

  • Guest
Re: Jacob loved but Esau God "hated"?
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2011, 02:20:57 PM »

Thanks Foxx! This is the same conclusion I had come to through study (though I had yet to look up the Greek/Hebrew words).

Two things people forget (rather deny) about God and His Word: (1) God's not a fickle human being whose emotions are constantly swayed by circumstances; He already knows what people will do before they do it, and He already knows how He's going to deal with them as a result. (2) Though the Word is "God-breathed" it is written down by men from "man's perspective". For example, from a person's perspective looking at the situation between Jacob and Esau, it looks like God loved Jacob more, but from God's perspective, it was just part of His plan for Jacob to receive (rather steal through trickery) Esau's blessings as the firstborn.

So when we read verses such as:

"The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity." Psalm 5:5

We know that God doesn't "hate" anyone in the sense that people "hate" people. When God "hates" someone it just means He isn't showing them favor at the time. Since God knows that showing "favor" to a sinner will not teach him/her righteousness (Isaiah 46:10), He instead "judges" them so that they "will learn righteousness" (verse 9).

Daywalker  8)
Logged

Foxx

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 146
  • Love doesn't delight in evil but rejoices in truth
Re: Jacob loved but Esau God "hated"?
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2011, 06:39:36 PM »

This post is so timely in my life as I struggle both with hating what someone is doing and saying and yet feeling guilty for having these feelings and thoughts.  Now I understand that I can hate my enemies but I HAVE to agapao them as God commands us to do.

Thanks for being obedient when God placed it on your heart to post for it has truly blessed me!

Heidi

Well, I'm glad this thread has blessed you in some way! It's great to hear when someone has some new understanding. As for myself my obedience is certainly only occasional it seems. I personally struggle with many sinful tendancies that weigh heavy on my heart but God has lead me to this site and to understand many of his truths thanks to Ray and others so I just have to trust in him that he will take those things away from me since I am unable to do so on my own. I just have to do my best as I know how. At any rate, its nice to know he can use myself and others who are hardly perfect by any measure to help others!

God bless!
Logged
"Intelligence without wisdom and compassion is useless"

daywalker

  • Guest
Re: Jacob loved but Esau God "hated"?
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2011, 09:23:28 PM »

This post is so timely in my life as I struggle both with hating what someone is doing and saying and yet feeling guilty for having these feelings and thoughts.  Now I understand that I can hate my enemies but I HAVE to agapao them as God commands us to do.

Thanks for being obedient when God placed it on your heart to post for it has truly blessed me!

Heidi

Well, I'm glad this thread has blessed you in some way! It's great to hear when someone has some new understanding. As for myself my obedience is certainly only occasional it seems. I personally struggle with many sinful tendancies that weigh heavy on my heart but God has lead me to this site and to understand many of his truths thanks to Ray and others so I just have to trust in him that he will take those things away from me since I am unable to do so on my own. I just have to do my best as I know how. At any rate, its nice to know he can use myself and others who are hardly perfect by any measure to help others!

God bless!

AMEN!!

"And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can't. I want to do what is good, but I don't. I don't want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. But if I do what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it." Romans 7:18-20, NLT

This has been one of my favorite passages for awhile. But only recently did I realize that this is the attitude I need to have in regards to my sins: because I don't want to do them, therefore I know that I don't do them, but instead the "sin" which dwells within me does them. But I am no longer a "slave" to sin because I don't want to! Instead, the "sin" within me is another enemy that I am wrestling with constantly (Eph 6:12).

Godspeed,
Daywalker
Logged

Heidi

  • Guest
Re: Jacob loved but Esau God "hated"?
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2011, 03:12:07 AM »

This post is so timely in my life as I struggle both with hating what someone is doing and saying and yet feeling guilty for having these feelings and thoughts.  Now I understand that I can hate my enemies but I HAVE to agapao them as God commands us to do.

Thanks for being obedient when God placed it on your heart to post for it has truly blessed me!

Heidi

Well, I'm glad this thread has blessed you in some way! It's great to hear when someone has some new understanding. As for myself my obedience is certainly only occasional it seems. I personally struggle with many sinful tendancies that weigh heavy on my heart but God has lead me to this site and to understand many of his truths thanks to Ray and others so I just have to trust in him that he will take those things away from me since I am unable to do so on my own. I just have to do my best as I know how. At any rate, its nice to know he can use myself and others who are hardly perfect by any measure to help others!

God bless!

AMEN!!

"And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can't. I want to do what is good, but I don't. I don't want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. But if I do what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it." Romans 7:18-20, NLT

This has been one of my favorite passages for awhile. But only recently did I realize that this is the attitude I need to have in regards to my sins: because I don't want to do them, therefore I know that I don't do them, but instead the "sin" which dwells within me does them. But I am no longer a "slave" to sin because I don't want to! Instead, the "sin" within me is another enemy that I am wrestling with constantly (Eph 6:12).


Godspeed,
Daywalker

Thanks you guys....this is realy speaking to me!
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.125 seconds with 23 queries.