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Author Topic: Adam's mother  (Read 17879 times)

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DougE6

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Re: Adam's mother
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2011, 04:21:05 PM »

There is another thought that comes to mind, in this discussion.  We know all the pre ancestors to modern man were mortal. They all had death and decay residing in them, and they all went to the dust at death. Now let us consider this scripture...Rom 5:12  Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.  Obviously, all the ape and pre human hominids were experiencing death and dying.  So how does that verse make any REAL sense, if Adam was just one of them?  Death would have already been alive and well, and in full operation, in him.  I suppose one could say he merely gained an understanding that death was operating in him, when his eyes were opened, so the allegory is one of mere understanding and not a definitive change in him.  I agree with the fact that Adam did have a carnal mind, before the transgression, but he had  NOTactually disobeyed, up until the transgression.  There is something very important about the act, the work, the actual committing of the transgression. And the scriptures state that death would not start in him UNTIL he partook.  Gen 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt surely die. So even if you do want to exclude physical death from this verse, and merely make it spiritual(which is a possible interpretation) it still does not fit well with the other verses that Paul wrote in the new testament. It sure seems like Paul had all death in mind when he wrote what he did.
Even the wages of sin are death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (death, not neverending torment in hell)  I think Jesus saves me from all the manifestations of death, the death that results from transgression.

 And the new testament scriptures also state that it was through the transgression that death passed to all men, not his inheritance from his "parents".  ...Rom 5:12  Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.  This verse clearly implies that without the sin by Adam death would not now be operating in man. We inherit death from Adam, however.  The inheritance of death is not from his progenitors, it is from Adam to the whole world, to us.

 
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mharrell08

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Re: Adam's mother
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2011, 05:02:53 PM »

This verse clearly implies that without the sin by Adam death would not now be operating in man. We inherit death from Adam, however.  The inheritance of death is not from his progenitors, it is from Adam to the whole world, to us.


That's not exactly true Doug, the wages of sin is death. As all have sinned, all inherit death by sin not by Adam. Wherever there is sin/transgression, there is death working in one's members [Rom 7:13].
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DougE6

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Re: Adam's mother
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2011, 05:57:05 PM »

Quote
That's not exactly true Doug, the wages of sin is death. As all have sinned, all inherit death by sin not by Adam. Wherever there is sin/transgression, there is death working in one's members [Rom 7:13].

I was speaking more broadly, like when Paul wrote...1Co 15:21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

We do inherit from Adam, whether one wants to call it sin, or death, the result is the same.
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SDDiver

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Re: Adam's mother
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2011, 05:59:19 PM »

Come to think of it, if there had already been other people (the world?) around at the time of Adam’s creation (calling?), wouldn't it fit so perfectly with the way that God works things…

...the many and the few

...the called and the chosen

...Israel and the Gentiles

...“Be ye separate”

...“Come out of her my people”
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mharrell08

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Re: Adam's mother
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2011, 06:05:31 PM »

We do inherit from Adam, whether one wants to call it sin, or death, the result is the same.


True, the result is the same. I found this email from Ray where he speaks of Adam's mortality being passed onto the human race:

http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm#Adam------------------------------------------

Dear Barb:

As with ALL major doctrines, the Christian Church has not a clue as to this subject of "original sin."

The doctrine taught is that Adam and Eve were PERFECT (after all, could God create something that was NOT perfect? Were they not created in God's OWN IMAGE)?

Well, they were "perfect" in the same way that Satan (a liar and a murderer from the very beginning) was perfect -- PERFECT FOR THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED THEM.

Adam and Eve ALREADY had lust and disobedience in their hearts BEFORE the serpent approached them. Eve LUSTED BEFORE she ever actually ate of the fruit. Small technicality for our Christian friends.

Now then let's read Rom. 5:12 together:

    "Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Now then, WHERE does that verse say that Adam's "sin was passed on to all in the world?"  Was "sin" passed on? NO! "DEATH" was passed on.

Are we condemned because of "ADAM'S SIN?"   NO! "...for that ALL have sinned."  All have sinned their OWN individual sins, they are not condemned because of Adam's sin, but they did receive "death" from Adam in that "mortality" WAS passed on to the whole human race, because Adam did NOT partake of the "TREE OF LIFE," but rather sinned which brought the penalty God promised of "death."

A better translation helps our understanding:

    "Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind on which all sinned..." (Concordant Literal New Testament).

Rom. 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..."

They were made sinners by VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT THEY RECEIVED ADAM'S MORTALITY [DEATH] NOT HIS SIN. We sin because we are mortal [dying]. We have NO SPIRITUAL STRENGTH to combat our carnal, sinning, DYING, FLESH. Hence all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. "It is appointed unto ALL men once to die"

But there are TWO DEATHS -- spiritual and physical. Jesus Christ said: "Let the DEAD bury the DEAD."  Two kinds of "dead" in ONE VERSE. The SPIRITUALLY DEAD, who bury the PHYSICALLY DEAD!

Hope that helps your understanding a little better. One more point: Any human being from any generation in the history of the human race, if put in the garden under the same conditions as Adam, would have ALSO SINNED THE SAME WAY. Adam sinned not because he could have chosen NOT TO SIN, but because he was made too spiritually weak to avoid or conquer sin. God MADE Adam subject to VANITY and CORRUPTION (and "not willingly"). See Romans 8:18-23).

God be with you,

Ray


I think we're saying/meaning the same thing.  :)
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daywalker

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Re: Adam's mother
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2011, 09:12:30 PM »

Gen 2:24  Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh

When the Pharisees approached Jesus to test Him, one of their questions was about marriage & divorce. Jesus quoted this passage of scripture to them in referring to Adam & Eve, who were joined as one.

So when God made this statement, who is the mother that the man (Adam) left to be joined with Eve? Is this further proof that Adam & Eve were not the first humans?

Who was Eve's father and mother if she came from Adam and she was the mother of all living?  Could Gen 2:24 just be a general statement applicable to future human beings other than Adam and Eve?

Or could the entire story of Adam and Eve be a parable since that seems to be God's preferred way of teaching?  A snake that talks and stands upright; a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil; a Tree of Life; the Tree of Life guarded by Cherubim and a flaming sword that moved in all directions; eating of forbidden fruit; God walking in the Garden in the cool of the day?  Is all this literal or a parable?


You know, I've heard and considered this idea of the Story of Eden being a parable, but the one "flaw" that I haven't got any answers for is the genealogical records in the Bible. Example:

Luke 3:23-38 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,....... 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

I don't see how this could be explained (away)...seems there must've been a real "Adam" at some point.


As for the serpent, I don't believe it was an actual snake that walked up or slithered around the tree talking to Eve, I think it was Satan talking much in the same way he talks to anyone else--through their mind (like Judas for example):

John 13:2 During supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him,

Before Satan actually "entered" or possessed Judas (verse 27), he had already been active in perverting his mind to betray Jesus. I'm thinking in the same way he 'worked' Eve's mind (though he never actually possessed her at any time). I don't believe that Eve ever actually "saw" anyone, though it appears somehow she was aware of his presence because she accuses him of tricking her (Gen 3:13). I could be wrong, but this is the way I see it.

Daywalker  8)


Being a "son of" can also be a parable or not literal.  See Matthew 1:1.  Jesus is called the son of David, the son of Abraham.  That is not strictly true or literal.  Adam is also the Hebrew word for "humanity".

Also your statement about Satan is an opinion.  I yearn for absolute truth, not opinion.  If a talking, standing serpent is not literal, which I have doubts about since I've never seen one ; how do we distinguish between literal and parable?

John, as if I yearn for opinion and not absolute truth? Let's be fair, your assessment of the Genesis story being a parable is just as much "opinion" as my statement on Satan. Though let me also add I didn't come to this "opinion" without reason, but I used a Scriptural example for why I feel as I do.

True, Jesus is called the son of David though He wasn't literally the son of David. But does this fact mean or even suggest that Jesus didn't actually exist at all? Of course not! Likewise, Adam being the "son of God" could indeed be figurative, yet does that mean Adam, the man, never existed at all? I am aware that Adam in the Hebrew means "humanity", and I'm not dogmatically denying the possibility of the Genesis story being a parable...I just haven't been convinced yet.

Godspeed,
Daywalker  8)



Hi Daywalker,,

I didn't mean to cause offense.  You are a scholar and gentleman.

The Scriptures are documents of spiritual truths that can only be spiritually discerned with the Spirit of God.

The topic of our actual beginnings is a topic that I have been interested in all my life.

Literal or parable, or a combination of both?  I suspect we may not have the complete answers this side of the Resurrection.

Peace to you.

John

No worries, John, we're good! Like I said I don't deny the possibility of it being a parable (at least partially) at all; I was just sharing a few problems I've run into that I've yet to find answers for in support of the parable theory (I call it 'theory' because at this time no one has shown me Scriptural support yet). Anyway, I agree with you on the resurrection too; I can't begin to imagine the extreme amount of enlightenment we will receive in the next life.... I hope the brains of our resurrection bodies are much bigger and better than our current ones!  :D

Daywalker  8)
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ericsteven

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Re: Adam's mother
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2011, 10:11:27 PM »

I haven't commented in a while, but one thing I remember about Ray's teachings is him constantly distinguishing between flesh and spirit.  For example:

Romans 7:9     Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

Romans 7:10    I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

Romans 7:11    For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

Are we to take these verses to mean that Paul literally died?  Or is this speaking of something spiritual?  And if it is spiritual, how would it apply to the "death" spoken of in the story of Adam and Eve?  Does the commandment from God to Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil parallel the commandment spoken of by Paul?  Is physical death really the issue here?  Or was it spiritual death that passed on to all mankind from the point that God gave his commandment in the garden?

Another verse to think about regarding the difference between physical and spiritual death:

I John 3:14     We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

Is John saying that anyone who does not love is physically dead?  Were those who now love once physically dead and now physically alive again?

On a related vein...if the death and resurrection of Jesus applies to all men and women who have ever lived, including those who lived before he died and rose again, would the same apply to the "death" brought in by Adam's sin?  i.e...Could the "death" spoken of in relation to Adam and Eve have passed to all men before and after Adam's disobedience (assuming there were men before Adam)? If that is true, would those who were physically alive before Adam experience that "death" once they have been resurrected to physical bodies and had an opportunity to be exposed to God's commandment?

I don't know.  Don't really have a lot of definitive answers.  Just things to think about.

Eric
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Marky Mark

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Re: Adam's mother
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2011, 12:31:42 PM »

Quote
Gen 2:24  Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh

When the Pharisees approached Jesus to test Him, one of their questions was about marriage & divorce. Jesus quoted this passage of scripture to them in referring to Adam & Eve, who were joined as one.

Joh 6:63 ...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 Cor 11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Eph 5:31  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32  This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Quote
So when God made this statement, who is the mother that the man (Adam) left to be joined with Eve? Is this further proof that Adam & Eve were not the first humans?

Mar 3:31  There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
Mar 3:32  And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
 
Mar 3:33  And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
Mar 3:34  And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mar 3:35  For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.


Mat 12:48  But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49  And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


Hey Marques,I hope you can see some of the Spiritual implications involved with your question.

Thanks...

Peace...Mark
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mharrell08

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Re: Adam's mother
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2011, 12:56:04 PM »

Quote
Gen 2:24  Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh

When the Pharisees approached Jesus to test Him, one of their questions was about marriage & divorce. Jesus quoted this passage of scripture to them in referring to Adam & Eve, who were joined as one.

Joh 6:63 ...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 Cor 11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Eph 5:31  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32  This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Quote
So when God made this statement, who is the mother that the man (Adam) left to be joined with Eve? Is this further proof that Adam & Eve were not the first humans?

Mar 3:31  There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
Mar 3:32  And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
 
Mar 3:33  And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
Mar 3:34  And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mar 3:35  For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.


Mat 12:48  But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49  And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


Hey Marques,I hope you can see some of the Spiritual implications involved with your question.

Thanks...

Peace...Mark


No, that wasn't related to my question but thank you anyways.
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gmik

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Re: Adam's mother
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2011, 02:52:46 PM »

At Ray's conf. in Nashville he talked about the Clovis people who were in America/Canada 14,000 years ago.  The church teaches Adam is about 6,000 years ago!

When I had my DNA done for genealogical purposes it said I was from the Hunter/Gatherers in the Ukraine area about 20,000 years ago.

Well, my 2 cents, I agree w/ Ray on this, not the church.

Did Moses write Genesis?? Far as I know there is no proof of this. How did the first 5 books of the Torah come down thru thousands of years intact?? 400 years in Egypt would have to infiltrate the brains of those Hebrews wouldn't it?? The first 3 chaps of Gen. are kinda confusing and actually shows creation out of order of days.  Did the Hebrews want to make sense of their beginnings like all other major people groups??  Or did God choose them to make Himself known to mankind? Thereby he could then be the first man as Christ is the 2nd man....those aren't literal statements but spiritual.

Lots of questions, good commentary, good thread people!

I read that the composite of our bodies are the same elements that were in the Big Bang!
 Cain left and went to cities!!  Lots of people on the planet before 6,000 years ago- but finally a group was hearing about the One True God. Maybe thats it. 
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Adam's mother
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2011, 04:41:38 PM »

According to the linguists, all human languages obey Zipf's Law. It's a really weird law, but it's not that hard to understand. Start off by getting a big fat book. Then, count the number of times each word appears in that book. You might find that the number one most popular word is "the" (which appears 2,000 times), followed by the second most popular word "a" (which appears 1,800 times), and so on. Right down at the bottom of the list, you have the least popular word, which might be "elephant", and which appears just once.
Set up two columns of numbers. One column is the order of popularity of the words, running from "1" for "the", and "2" for "a", right down "1,000" for "elephant". The other column counts how many times each word appeared, starting off with 2,000 appearances of "the", then 1,800 appearances of "a", down to one appearance of "elephant".
 
If you then plot on the right kind of graph paper, the order of popularity of the words, against the number of times each word appears you get a straight line! Even more amazingly, this straight line appears for every human language - whether it's English or Egyptian, Eskimo or Chinese! Now the DNA is just one continuous ladder of squillions of rungs, and is not neatly broken up into individual words (like a book).

So the scientists looked at a very long bit of DNA, and made artificial words by breaking up the DNA into "words" each 3 rungs long. And then they tried it again for "words" 4 rungs long, 5 rungs long, and so on up to 8 rungs long. They then analysed all these words, and to their surprise, they got the same sort of Zipf Law/straight-line-graph for the human DNA (which is mostly introns), as they did for the human languages!

There seems to be some sort of language buried in the so-called junk DNA! Certainly, the next few years will be a very good time to make a career change into the field of genetics.

So now, around the edge of the new millennium, we have a reasonable understanding of the 3% of the DNA that makes amino acids, proteins and babies. And the remaining 97% - well, we're pretty sure that there is some language buried there, even if we don't yet know what it says. It might say "It's all a joke", or it might say "Don't worry, be happy", or it might say "Have a nice day, lots of love, from your friendly local DNA".


http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2001/04/04/133634.htm?site=science/greatmomentsinscience

Jesus is the "missing" link ~ :) ...He's not really "missing'" ~  :D

Arc
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zvezda

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Re: Adam's mother
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2011, 06:15:04 PM »

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

So God created humanity - male and female, right?

But guess what? Adam was not male or female, he was both male and female.


from http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3720.5
How did he know it was bone of his bone?  How could he look at Eve and say, you came out of me?  What did he see?  God didn’t say, 'Adam I know your going to wonder where this woman came from, I put you to sleep and I took a rib, I made her.'  No, he could tell, he looked and saw and he said that’s me, you come from me.  How did he know that?  He looked, he had something before he went to sleep, he had something and when he woke up and God brought him to the woman, he didn’t have it anymore.  She had it!  What do you suppose that was?  He (just like God) was male and female.  God is male and female, Adam was male and female. God took the female part and made a woman out of it.  Adam saw that what he had was now gone, it’s over there.  She came from me, that’s bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh, she came out of me.


So my question is:

Did God create a bunch of males and females in the first place, and Adam was the only one who's both male and female?

OR

Did God create a bunch of people who were both male and female(hermaphrodites??), and then took out their female (or male) part to create another human, just like what He did to Adam?

I am inclined to think Adam was the only one who's both male and female, hence he's different and and an outcast, people might not understand his condition, that also explains "If women were around, why a different creation for Eve?" Because no one wanted him, probably not even his biological parents, he was despised and rejected. But giess what? God chose him and took him to the garden.

1 Cor 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

Does it make sense?   ???
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dave

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Re: Adam's mother
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2011, 08:22:25 PM »


The whole human race had their start with Adam and Eve is what the church teaches! That Adam was literally formed from the dirt and gave life is what the church teaches! One thing I have learned from Ray is that if the church teaches it.... well it's probably not right, as they receive their understanding from the father of liars.

John 8:44  You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you will do... for he is a liar and the father of it.

It seems we still cling to those old ideas that we were raised up believing. How many of us believed the flood was worldwide before? Then after Ray showed us his research of what 'seemed' obvious in Scripture, who of us still believe the waters covered the whole earth?

What about the creation days, that seemed to be without question... 6 literal day. But now we know there is a great deal more to it, billions of years more to it.

So why would this account of Adam be any different? It is quite clear that there were other indigenous (hunter gathers) people on the earth way before the time of Adam. Why would God need to create a person (Adam) from scratch, so to speak? He already had all of these people that He had already created. It is quite easy for me to see how He would use these people to give birth to and care for the baby Adam and then separate Adam from them at some point. There are no Scriptures that dispute this, there are just preconceived idea that do. 

We need to look at this subject with an open mind.  There is no reason to fight one another over this idea, we are here to reason these things out and let the spirit reveal what is true.

mercy, peace and love
Kat



I may have read this but please give me a refresher. Thanks "He already had all of these people that He had already created." Kat
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dave

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Re: Adam's mother
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2011, 09:03:39 PM »

You know this whole subject is just ripe for speculation.  We can all go off in a thousand tangents.

Until God gives us understanding, we don't really know what is literal, what is symbolic, or what is a combination of both.

The whole story could be an allegory that teaches profound spiritual truths.

Adam is also the Hebrew name for humanity.  Adam could be a stand in for the human race.  Eve is the mother of all living.  For sure, at some point, there had to be a first man and first woman, or there would have been no reproduction of the human race.

Jesus always taught in parables in the New Testament.  He is the Word of God.  Why would He have changed His modus operandi in the Old Testament and not taught in parables too.  New Testament parables---Old Testament literal truth?

For sure, the fundamental purpose of the Scriptures is to show spiritual truths, that only God will reveal to those to whom it is granted.

I like that. I for one am lead to lean for the parable view.
You stated "Eve is the mother of all living." for me that is interesting. That word "living" is H2416 chay From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh);  is the same word "life" of breath of life.
So knowing this I dont accept the notion that the "breath of life" is the somehow God's Spirit. My God is not part of Adams Eve, the mother of all living.
Eve is the mother of the alive. That breath of life for me was the ignition that started the respiratory system that keeps the living soul/breathing creature LIVING.

Having said that when I read Ecc 12:7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. I read "...and the breath shall return unto God who gave it."

I hope I said that clearly enough.


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mharrell08

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Re: Adam's mother
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2011, 09:38:01 PM »

I would like to thank all the members for their comments. Good discussion without any hurt feelings.  :)

With that being said, I think we should end this thread on a good note. Thanks again to all.
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