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Author Topic: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?  (Read 4476 times)

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newgene87

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Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« on: April 05, 2012, 02:17:40 AM »

Alright, got caught in a disturbing conversation, well, discussion, on the new testament and the Apostle Paul. It ended up being, the Gospels vs Paul. Now; this is beyond the mere James vs Paul, and are we justified by faith or works; but Paul....I'm noticing from his own epistles some disturbing notions. And I need some help and I wonder has anyone else noticed it. Now, this is ONLY regarding Paul's Epistles and writings. Not the Torah, Scriptures, or the Gospel accounts of our Lord but this figure Paul...

The first BIG one is basically where the doctrine of Communion comes from. Paul says, "For I have received of the Lord...that the Lord Jesus the night in which He was betrayed took bread...he brake and said, Take eat: this is my body, WHICH IS BROKEN FOR YOU...." (1 Corinthians 11:23-24). Now was this really 'of the Lord'? First off, neither of His bones were broken..."He keeps all His bones: not ONE of them is BROKEN" (Psalm 34:20)(John 19:36). An Jesus actually said, "...this is my body which is GIVEN for you" (Luke 22:19).

And since Paul's epistles are filled with his statements, boasts, and a lot of Self, has anyone noticed Paul's says "I" and "Me" a lot. Hes even said, "speak 'I', NOT the Lord..." (1Corinthians 7:12). And anyone else noticed how Paul speaks highly of the sufferings he's been through, he counts himself among the chiefest apostles (2Cor 12:11), every single letter he mentions himself; and not so bad, cause James did, peter but not after those verses; Paul usually rants on about himself. And it brings to mind Jesus teaching, "He that speaks of Himself seeks His own glory..." and a few verses above, "My doctrine is not MINE, but HIS that sent me" (John 7:16,18).

Interesting enough, Paul mentions "My Gospel" a view times (Rom. 2:16; 16:25; 2 Tim. 2.. The middle verse in there, Paul makes a crazy statement, "...according to MY GOSPEL, AND the preaching of Jesus Christ".....wowsers....that just strikes me in such a negative fashion. Paul speaks so much of himself and his teaching who's to say that it's even Christs words? But his own wisdom?

"Gospel of uncircumcision" (differentiating from Peters), yet Peter FIRST received the revelation of the Gentiles. And why is it any different?? Jesus came and Preached the gospel of the kingdom of the Heavens/God yet Paul is referring to "His" gospel and 'includes' Jesus. Ok...what's up with that? Next, the deal on Salvation and life. "one came and said unto...what good thing shall I do, that I may have age-abiding life? (now, Jesus did not state or even hint, 'confess with your mouth the Lord and believe in your heart you shall be saved or by grace through faith as Paul does) but went on to preaching obedience to the commandments. The boy lacked something; and it was to give to the poor and follow Him." (Matthew 19:16-21).

Reading through the Gospels which I have been doing for 2 weeks straight heavily, Jesus preached to save yourself was to essentially save/love others. From the good samaritan parable, to the parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:33-46). It's about loving your neighbor, loving God, obeying his word, and giving to the poor. Paul brought teachings on the spirit, and grace and diminishing of the law, and even tho he attempted to uphold the law: by stating "all things are lawful unto me" twice kinda annuls him upholding the law. Not saying he was not a good guy but what if he was the stumbling block for followers of Jesus?

He even stated in Galatians that after his conversions he did NOT converse with those who ACTUALLY WALKED AND TALKED WITH JESUS; why?

Now, my last problem....out of the 7 churches John was told to write to in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, the first church was EPHESUS, the very church Paul wrote to. And says, "I know your works, and your labor, and your patience, and how you can not bear them which are evil: and you have tried them which SAY THEY ARE APOSTLES, and are not, and have found them liars..." (2:2). Good epistle and all but I am noticing the major differences in the Gospels and Paul. And now it's making me question him. Never the Gospels, not My lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but Paul.

How did Paul get SOOOO big in The Holy Scriptures, when He does contradict himself. (Galatians 2:11-21 = Acts 16:3)(1 Corinthians 10:33 = Galatians 1:10). And where did Jesus ever do away with circumcision as Paul so boldly states? Hes the only one so boldly that throws out circumcision (even though it doesn't matter) but, what about what Jesus taught?



***broken into paragraphs as best I could for easier reading--Dave***
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 08:21:41 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2012, 02:24:19 AM »

I didn't read through your entire post just to be upfront with you but judging by your title, this topic has come up before and ray wrote an extensive article about it, I BELIEVE.

I think its one of those hidden links on the website and I can't remember the name of the direct link.

If i'm wrong about the above, than this information about paul is probably in one of rays articles and I can't remember which one. Ill try and find it for you but maybe a moderator will get to it before I do.

Basically, Paul is an apostle. You can't let every wind of change blow you around like this. Take a breath, study, grow, don't let everything shake you up.

With love,

Alex

Edit: One thread about it: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13303.msg117220.html#msg117220

Nothing from ray yet, still searching!

FOUND IT!!!

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.0.html

It's not hidden, it was an audio article. Haha. Sorry xD

Its entitled: "Do James and Paul contradict?" But it also goes into the subject as to whether Paul was really a discple of Christs or not, talks about the whole law idea you brought up in your post etc..

To put it in rays final words on the matter about this in the link I provided: "Well anyway, I hope that clears up that Paul is not a heretic and James is not a epistle of straw that needs to be burned. They both agreed on this completely, there is no contradiction and it’s not that hard to see."

I hope this helps you! :)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 02:35:31 AM by lilitalienboi16 »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2012, 04:56:11 AM »

I can see this possibly turning into a long thread since you've raised so many issues. 

I have a couple of questions for you first.

1.  Would the answers to these concerns be for your edification?  Or would they be to "argue" with your 'conversation/discussion' mate who presumably is not here.  Your answer will determine my motivation to dig, search, and type replies.

2.  Do you have any confidence in the book of Acts?


This study may give you some background on why Paul is sooooo big in the Scriptures.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html

« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 06:53:55 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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cjwood

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2012, 05:31:06 AM »

newgene, i think perhaps your confusion might be based in focus, translations, and different nuances of the same word.

i was looking at the different verses you used, in the different translations i had at hand.  the kjv, the clt/nt, and rotherham's.  then i looked at the main words you were focusing on, with regards to the words used by paul and the apostles, "broken/brake(s)/given".  i think some of your confusion might be helped by looking deeper into these words .  never, ever, ever, is there any contradiction in the Scriptures; only confusion in our understanding of them.  "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..." (2 tim. 3:16)

anyway, i looked up these words in the strong's expanded, exhaustive concordance, and found some interesting and exciting things, leading me deeper into other verses noted in the info given.  (like on a treasure hunt!)

the braking and the broken and the giving, all have to do with Jesus Christ.  but, the word "broken" when speaking of the bones of Jesus, and the word "broken" when Christ is speaking of taking and eating of His body, which was "broken" for the apostle's by Jesus at the Lord's supper, carry different word meanings in the greek. 

the word broken in reference to the bones of Jesus' actual physical body, carries the meaning of crushing completely/shattering/breaking to pieces.  the words brakes and broken, in reference to the bread and the body of Christ, given by Him at the last supper, carry the meaning of breaking off pieces as when eating and sharing a loaf of bread.  Jesus and the apostles shared a few loaves of bread with many disciples.  Jesus was the one who did the initial breaking of the loaves.  each time, Jesus blessed the bread, then broke it, then gave it to the apostles to share with all the people.  so many hungry people.  He never gave the bread without breaking it first.  Jesus' words are the bread of life.  the Spiritual manna.  broken from the same loaf, into many, many pieces.  and the Scriptures say that they did all eat and were filled.

so with regards to the stuff about paul and these words, there is NO contradiction.  zip, nil, nada...

claudia

p.s.  i didn't read the whole thread either.  just kind of started at the beginning and got off into that, then stopped.  must go to bed.....





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JohnChris

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2012, 07:50:06 AM »

Just a suggestion, new gene, but since you've been reading the gospels, how about moving on into the book of Acts? I think a reading of it will place your issues in context. I feel it may help give you more insight into who Paul really was, and how submitted he was to Jesus Christ. Maybe it will, maybe not, but hey, give it an open-minded shot, my brother, and see if it settles some of your concerns.
Onelove
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Arion

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2012, 09:17:06 AM »

Paul an apostle??

2Co 11:24-31  Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.  Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;  In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.  Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.  Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?  If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities. The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Gal 6:17  From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.


There are no contradictions between the writings of Paul and the rest of the apostles.  The word of God doesn't contradict.
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eggi

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2012, 10:18:01 AM »

Hi newgene,

First of all, Jesus Christ Himself chose Paul as His apostle:
(Act 9:15)  But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he [Paul] is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Secondly, Paul was acknowledged by the whole church at Jerusalem as an apostle of Jesus Christ.
(Acts 15:22)
Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas,

May God bless you with faith in His Word.
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Revilonivek

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2012, 12:01:01 PM »

Good Question-

It is something that we all have to study and see for ourselves. the Apostles never seem to live on their titles. Paul is the only one who constantly called himself an apostle and boasted that he received the gospel from God and no one else taught him. Even if he was with Barnabas, being an apostle. He never claimed on that title. Paul constantly did with his. You have to admit that he and James and peter weren't always on good terms. Paul called Peter a hypocrite, and later on..  James and his people confronted Paul because the jews who followed Apostle James weren't sure that Paul was sincere in his faith. Surely Alot of them were Jews He persecuted in his old days. He never apologized to them at all.  he lied his way around.  When he was arrested by roman soldiers and bought to high priest court. He denied himself and claimed himself as a pharisee to save himself. He was protected by soldiers as he moved away from Jerusalem.  It's all in the NT.

The parts in Revelations and what Paul said in Timothy bothered me as well. We know that Epheus and many other churches are in Asia.

Jesus said to the church of Ephesus.

"I know your works, your labor, and your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars." Rev. 2:2

Paul makes this statement to Timothy.

"This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me."   2Timothy 1:15

Revelations also says...
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Who knows...

Denise
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Arion

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2012, 12:15:41 PM »


Who knows...

Denise

Not to start a fight but a topic worthy of consideration is do we think that the word of God contradicts?  If we do then we have some real deep problems on our hand.  As Ray has taught us many times the word of God on the surface appears to contradict but when you dig into it and God gives us revelation we find that the entire word harmonizes from top to bottom.  It might be very helpful to review the paper '12 God given truths to understand his word' on the front page.  Specifically truth #10 where Ray teaches on the relative and the absolute when it comes to God's word.  It may help to clear up some confusion on this issue.  If Paul was not an apostle then we might as well tear out almost half of the new testament and then where does that leave us if we go down that rabbit trail?  Leads us right back into Babylon friends.
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GaryK

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2012, 12:37:35 PM »

And now it's making me question him. Never the Gospels, not My lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but Paul.



2 Timothy 3:16

King James Version (KJV)
16   All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:



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You can't let every wind of change blow you around like this. Take a breath, study, grow, don't let everything shake you up.   Lilitalienboi16

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eggi

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2012, 12:49:31 PM »


If Paul was not an apostle then we might as well tear out almost half of the new testament and then where does that leave us if we go down that rabbit trail?  Leads us right back into Babylon friends.

And this is exactly what many have done. These days there is a "Hebrew roots" movement sweeping through Christianity. Many of the Hebrew Roots congregations have a problem with what Paul is saying regarding the law of Moses. They are then left with two possibilities, either they twist the words of Paul into saying that Christians must obey the law of Moses, or they get rid of him altogether, saying that he was a false apostle, or that he was too Hellenistic in his interpretation of the Scriptures. Some Hebrew roots congregations leave out Christ's work of redemption as well, saying that His mission was just to renew the Torah, and that it is through observing the Torah that we are saved. So obviously we can see what these ideas lead to...

To doubt Paul's status as a CHOSEN VESSEL by Christ is a discussion that I don't even want to get sucked into. As Arion mentioned, we might as well then tear out half of the New Testament.
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Revilonivek

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2012, 12:54:59 PM »

Yes. All scriptures are given by inspiration.  God is teaching us something. Pay attention to the scriptures. It is telling us something abt characters and what to loook for. Throughout the bible we learn abt different kinds of people and their characters. There are good and bad people throught old testament. Why not the new testament too? Jesus did say there will be many false prophets and apostles rising up after he leaves. What if Paul is an example of one? Showing us how this example can decieve many? I don't know. Something just did not feel right with Paul. That's all.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2012, 01:41:11 PM »

There were those in Paul's day that didn't care much for Paul.  They haunted him in every church he started and followed him from place to place to see if they could siphon off from or take credit for his ministry.  What do you reckon he said or did about that?

Did Paul really boast?  Do you know what an Apostle is?   

Let me say that it took me a while to 'like' Ray and it took me a while to 'like' Paul...but it wasn't for anything that Paul actually said or did, but what I ""felt"" he said or did.  I encourage you, since you've spent two whole weeks reading the 'gospels' to spend at least a couple of days reading Acts, and then some more time reading the epistles of Paul.  ALL the words.  In a readable translation. 

For purposes of the forum, I'm willing to leave this up a little while--at least until Gene indicates where he's coming from.  Ray has plenty to say about Paul, and Paul is monumentally easy to "defend" for those of us inclined to do so.  I'm in that "us"...that's not just diplomatic-speak.  That doesn't mean we're going to entertain every whim or allow the thread to break the rules or become too unwieldy to read.       
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eggi

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2012, 01:54:12 PM »

Yes. All scriptures are given by inspiration.  God is teaching us something. Pay attention to the scriptures. It is telling us something abt characters and what to loook for. Throughout the bible we learn abt different kinds of people and their characters. There are good and bad people throught old testament. Why not the new testament too? Jesus did say there will be many false prophets and apostles rising up after he leaves. What if Paul is an example of one? Showing us how this example can decieve many? I don't know. Something just did not feel right with Paul. That's all.

Denise, I'm sorry you feel that way.

This is written by Peter the Apostle:
2 Peter 3:14-16: Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Since Peter, in a letter where he discusses FALSE TEACHERS, obviously approves of Paul as a BELOVED BROTHER, then I think it is clear that Paul is not "an example of a false prophet". Or should we suggest that Peter is also false? What about the rest of the apostles?

What exactly is it that just doesn't feel right with Paul?
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Kat

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2012, 01:59:09 PM »


If you don't believe that Paul is a true Apostle, then how can you believe any of the gospel? He is a primary writer of the NT Scripture.  Peter makes it clear that he supported Paul's writings and as a fellow apostle. Peter and obviously the other apostles stood behind Paul or else they would not have approved and canonized his books for the NT.  If you call into question Paul, as he is a pivotal writer and teacher of so many truths, how do you stand behind this truth at all?

Here is some things that Ray said about Paul at the conference "How We Got The Bible.'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html -----------------------

But look at this.

II Peter 3:14  Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for these things, give diligence that ye may be found in peace, without spot and blameless in his sight.
v. 15  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you;

Who did Paul write all his epistles to? The Gentiles. Paul is now in prison in Roman and Peter is writing to the Gentiles. What is going on here? Apparently Paul wanted him to, because Paul can’t get these letters out being in Roman, like he use to.

II Peter 3:16  as also in ALL his epistles, speaking in them of these things;

What did Peter know about “all his (Paul’s) epistles”? Because Peter had them. He had them all. How did he get them?

II Tim. 4:11  Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with you; for he is useful to me for ministering.
v. 12  But Tychicus I sent to Ephesus.
v. 13  The cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus, bring when thou come, and the books, ESPECIALLY THE PARCHMENTS.

These are Paul’s letters. These are not the books, but the vellums, these are his epistles. Why would he want all his epistles? Didn’t he know what he said? Well he knows his time is near the end and Paul knows what he has written is Scripture. We read many Scripture showing that he knew that he was writing ‘Bible verses’ if you will. 
Now Paul wants Mark to come and bring those letters, because he’s going to go through them. In fact he’s going to edit some of them.
v
Consider one thing, Paul both understood Judaic theology and the classic works of the Gentiles. He was an intellectual both among the Jews and the Gentiles. He would have been the last person on earth to believe that Jesus was the Son of God. Paul persecuted TO DEATH those who followed the teachings of Jesus.
v
Another thing is Paul was maybe the greatest single champion for Jesus Christ, of any man that ever lived and he was no dummy. This guy studied under Rabbi Gamaliel, one of the greatest teachers of all times in the Jewish ways. Paul was from Tarsus the center for Stoic learning. You don’t bamboozle somebody like Paul. Especially because he is out persecuting the church and then he turns around and he defends it. What would change a well educated man like that? What would change him? For Paul to have his mind totally changed, required proof beyond question or contradiction. PAUL DIED FOR HIS BELIEF THAT JESUS WAS THE SON OF GOD, that He both died and was resurrected.
v
II Cor. 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me,

Paul makes no bones about it, he says, I was given a lot of revelations from God. Well these revelations weren’t given to him just for his pride and vanity. So he knew all this stuff and this was going to be written down as Scripture, not everything, but a lot.
Paul may have written hundreds of letters, he probably wrote letters all the time. But they were not all destined to be in the canon or the Scripture.

Eph 3:3-7  how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I was made a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

So in other ages, in the Old Testament this stuff was not known. They did not know what Paul was telling them. This is new revelation from God, “as it has now been revealed by the Spirit.” So there are apostles and prophets at the time of Paul. He was an Apostle and anybody who speaks, sings or writes inspired writing from God is a prophet. 

Col 1:25 whereof I was made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you, TO FULFILL THE WORD OF GOD, 

This is not saying, that I Paul am fulfilling some Scripture that talks about me being an Apostle? No. There is no Old Testament Scripture that prophesied about Paul being an Apostle. None. He’s not fulfilling some prophecy about himself. 
He’s filling up his writing - his prophesying - his inspired writing - his teachings of the mystery of Christ, his version of the gospel given to him. This is going to fill up the Word of God, complete it, see. 
We have to be careful that we don’t put interpretations on words that isn’t there. To fill it means to fill it full, to fill it up full, the Word of God.


Col 1:26  the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to His saints,

How? Through Paul’s writings, and Peters, James, Jude and John. 

I Cor. 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

These things are straight from the Lord. Straight from God. All this stuff that Paul is writing, is Scripture.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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John from Kentucky

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2012, 02:56:09 PM »

Satan is boring.  He does the same things over and over.  Satan likes to cast doubts about the Word of God.

That's what he did with Eve.  He told her God had lied.

God's word is truth.  The scriptures are the written word of God and tells us the truth about God and His ways.  Paul's writings are scripture inspired by God.  They are clear in the middle of the New Testament.

Not only this thread, but other recent threads on the Forum have tried the same thing.  They consist of paragraph after paragraph of nutty, false, lies about the scriptures.  These threads also mention "love". 

Does Satan think he can fool the Spirit of God?

http://bible-truths.com/kiss.htm  This is a link where Ray discusses the wolves among us.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 03:18:01 PM by John from Kentucky »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2012, 03:03:45 PM »

Yes. All scriptures are given by inspiration.  God is teaching us something. Pay attention to the scriptures. It is telling us something abt characters and what to loook for. Throughout the bible we learn abt different kinds of people and their characters. There are good and bad people throught old testament. Why not the new testament too? Jesus did say there will be many false prophets and apostles rising up after he leaves. What if Paul is an example of one? Showing us how this example can decieve many? I don't know. Something just did not feel right with Paul. That's all.

Denise, I'm sorry you feel that way.

This is written by Peter the Apostle:
2 Peter 3:14-16: Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Since Peter, in a letter where he discusses FALSE TEACHERS, obviously approves of Paul as a BELOVED BROTHER, then I think it is clear that Paul is not "an example of a false prophet". Or should we suggest that Peter is also false? What about the rest of the apostles?

What exactly is it that just doesn't feel right with Paul?

That's my dear brother, is the nail in the coffin. Thank you for that piece of scripture. Paul was indeed a beloved brother, a vessel of mercy and honor chosen by our Lord and Saviour.

Edit: In the article I linked of "Do james and paul contradict?" Ray makes some very strong points and blows out water some of this nonsense about paul not being a real apostle and heretic. People just need to go read it.
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indianabob

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2012, 05:09:54 PM »

Dear Folks,

It might be helpful for those wondering about Paul to consider the following:
It is my understanding that Jesus said plainly that he came to the Jews, the circumcision and not to any others. Jesus did not send his 12 apostles to the gentiles, in fact he forbid them to go to the gentiles and they didn't for ten or twenty years.
It was years after Lord Jesus' ascension that he called and sent Saul/Paul specifically to the gentiles.
All the while the 12 were keeping the law of the Jews in their personal lives.
So apparently, Jesus wanted it that way UNTIL the time was right to send a specially prepared apostle to the gentiles. Why?
1 Cor 1:22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Paul makes it quite clear that he was not taught by any man or any apostle or other believer, but that he was taught directly by Lord Jesus while living in Arabia for three years.
It seems that Jesus knew that a different approach would be needed for these divergent groups.
It was and still is difficult for even a believer to give up serving the law and put faith in God's grace.
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eggi

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2012, 05:30:41 PM »

Dear Folks,

It might be helpful for those wondering about Paul to consider the following:
It is my understanding that Jesus said plainly that he came to the Jews, the circumcision and not to any others. Jesus did not send his 12 apostles to the gentiles, in fact he forbid them to go to the gentiles and they didn't for ten or twenty years.
It was years after Lord Jesus' ascension that he called and sent Saul/Paul specifically to the gentiles.
All the while the 12 were keeping the law of the Jews in their personal lives.
So apparently, Jesus wanted it that way UNTIL the time was right to send a specially prepared apostle to the gentiles. Why?
1 Cor 1:22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Paul makes it quite clear that he was not taught by any man or any apostle or other believer, but that he was taught directly by Lord Jesus while living in Arabia for three years.
It seems that Jesus knew that a different approach would be needed for these divergent groups.
It was and still is difficult for even a believer to give up serving the law and put faith in God's grace.

Excellent point, Bob!
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Revilonivek

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2012, 05:49:28 PM »

I don't want us all to have to feel defensive on this.  It's how we learn from eachother.   

I only shared my concerns is all. It doesn't mean I think i'm right. It is just concerns.

1. We used to perceive our pastors or leaders our beloved brothers of God at one point. We believed them. Maybe the Apostles did too.  They must have experienced people like that, just like we did. We were deceived at first. Why would you say the Apostles weren't decieved at all at first?  Jesus warned that there will be many coming after he leaves. Those who teach that Jesus is christ. Paul may be a beloved brother at first.

2. Would you trust those who come to you and say They received their gospel from no one else but God and was taught by God only. didn't learn it from anywhere or anybody. Not even from the Apostles.  Of course Naturally, you would be apprehensive of that.  Why would it be any different back then during Apostles' time. 

3. Why did he steal from other churches to serve his own church?

4. Why did James and other Jews doubt Paul's sincerity at one point?

5. Why did he lie about himself to the high priest and the governor? why did he deny himself and say he is a pharisee when faced a high priest and lie again to the governor for his own protection?

6. Why did Paul confess to Timothy how he felt, that all the churches in Asia left him? Why did Jesus praise the church of Epheus that they tried those who claim to be an apostle but turned out to be an false apostle?

7. We used to look up to our leaders as they were righteous and all knowing but we learned the truth about them eventually later... What if Paul is an example of what we deal with? Leaders of today believed in their truths. Like Ray said, Apostles learned as they lived their life- they spiritually grew and got to know the truth. They weren't already there by the time Jesus ascended. They learned as time went.  granted God used paul to spread the gospel to the gentiles. So did God use many leaders of today to help you and me come to the knowledge of this great truth of the real good news..  it was necessary....

The stories about Paul- it seems to reflect the preachers/ leaders of today. There  are many that are sincere in what they believe in... but they do have flaws.

I have an open mind- If Ray says Paul is one of the good guys. Then great. It just doesn't address my concerns about Paul listed above. If you can- I'm all ears.
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