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Author Topic: "Cloven Tongues as of Fire"  (Read 1541 times)

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newgene87

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"Cloven Tongues as of Fire"
« on: August 18, 2012, 11:36:53 PM »

that section of Acts is very confusing to me. I know this covers the concept of "speaking in tongues" but Ray clears that up. But WHAT WAS THIS that appears to the Disciples on the day of Pentecost???? This is an enigma to me.

"And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (Acts 2:2-4) KJV

And suddenly there came out of heaven a blare, even as of a violent, carrying blast, and it fills the whole house where they were sitting." And seen by them were dividing tongues as if of fire, and one is seated on each one of them."And they are all filled with holy spirit, and they begin to speak in different languages, according as the spirit gave them to declaim." ~ Concordant

Did ray ever expound on this? I know he thoroughly covered the doctrine of "Tongues" or the gift of Languages, I understand that "tongues have pauo", meaning ceased, so no longer as it were in the New Testament church of the early Apostles - but what was that event? this verse could easily be misunderstood so i seeking some understanding on it. Thanks in advance

Eugene
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: "Cloven Tongues as of Fire"
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2012, 01:27:02 AM »

I've heard a sermon or two on this trying to explain the symbolism, but I'm not going to repeat them from my lapsed memory.  I will tell you what came to mind when reading the post:

Joh 4:46-48  So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum.  When he heard that Jesus was come out of Judaea into Galilee, he went unto him, and besought him that he would come down, and heal his son: for he was at the point of death.

Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.


Joh 14:11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me; yet if not, believe Me because of the works themselves.

Peter 'explains' what was going in in general in his sermon in chaper 3.

That's probably no help, but there it is anyway.   




 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Gina

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Re: "Cloven Tongues as of Fire"
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2012, 07:57:24 AM »

Forgive my long WINDED reply.  he he   See what I'm saying? ;)

Side bar:  You know why they call Chicago the "windy city" don't you?  On the surface it's because of how windy it is there -- literally.  However, the running joke is the politicians are blowhards.  But I digress...

If you got what Ray said about speaking in tongues, then you're basically there.  The tongues they spoke in were known  languages; the disciples were speaking languages they'd never spoken before so that they were understood by the others who heard them speak their language--and they [the ones that heard the disciples speak in their own language] were probably thinking something like, Now you're speaking my language!, Yeah, I heard that!, Now you're talkin!, Preach it sister, c'mon!  WORD!  You get that the disciples weren't speaking gibberish.  Good.

Ray did not specially address these "divided / cloven tongues of fire."  But if you want my 2 cents worth, notice how there came a "mighty wind" or "blast" that FILLS the house they were in and then.... FIRE

Are you kidding me?  What happened?  Did the wind then suddenly leave the house so as not to extinguish the tongues of fire?  Gimme a break. :)

There appeared to them...

As seen by them ...

I haven't checked a Strong's or any other study aid, but my educated guess would be to recall the time that Peter, James, and John saw Jesus with Moses and Elias.  Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the VISION to no man,

Maybe you're way ahead of me, but I noticed how it says:  "dividing tongues AS IF of fire," and "LIKE AS of fire,"

This was not literal fire no more than they were literal tongues.

Cloven means "cleft/split" or "two" and the word picture you get is that of a "hoof."

Were only "two" languages being spoken?  I don't think so. 

Why the reference to "cloven" or "split" and why is  "hoof" the word picture the dictionary gives?

I wouldn't make an idol of the heart out of it.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 08:04:46 AM by Gina »
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Kat

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Re: "Cloven Tongues as of Fire"
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2012, 11:26:28 AM »


Hi Eugene,

Acts 2:3 And seen by them were dividing tongues as if of fire, and one is seated on each one of them. (CLV)

I think this was a great and miraculous sign unto the believers that showed them the coming of the Holy Spirit in a visible way. The way that Concordant has it is this was "dividing tongues as if of fire," so it seems that something that looked 'like' fire appeared and divided up and came to each of them and sat/rested on them. Now this "fire" should be understandable as God's Spirit, as John the Baptist spoke of it.

Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Heb 12:29 for our God is also a consuming fire.

The "tongues" I believe was also a miraculous sign for this event, in that they did exhibit more than just a visible sign, but the ability the speak other languages that they did not know as well.

Acts 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

So I just look at this most profound occasion of the first coming of the Holy Spirit as being presented in a very spactacular way by God to those first believers as a witness to them and to us as well.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 11:48:41 AM by Kat »
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Jam 4:14 " whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away."

Rene

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Re: "Cloven Tongues as of Fire"
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2012, 01:28:34 PM »


But WHAT WAS THIS that appears to the Disciples on the day of Pentecost????


Rotherham Emphasized Bible:

"and there appeared unto them parting asunder tongues, like as of fire, and it sat upon each one of them"

Hi Eugene,

I am not sure what this event actually looked like, but the main point is that this event was used as a mighty witness of the spirit of God upon His followers.  As you read further down the 2nd chapter of Acts, Peter was given an opportunity to reveal many truths to the masses who witnessed the "speaking in tongues" by the Disciples.  In 1 Corinthians, Paul also gave a second witness as to the purpose of "speaking in tongues."   

1 Cor, 14:22 - "So that the tongues are for a sign, not unto them that believe, but unto them that believe not"

René
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Gina

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Re: "Cloven Tongues as of Fire"
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2012, 03:46:50 PM »


1 Cor, 14:22 - "So that the tongues are for a sign, not unto them that believe, but unto them that believe not"

René

Exactly.
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micah7:9

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Re: "Cloven Tongues as of Fire"
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2012, 03:52:40 PM »


Hi Eugene,

Acts 2:3 And seen by them were dividing tongues as if of fire, and one is seated on each one of them. (CLV)

I think this was a great and miraculous sign unto the believers that showed them the coming of the Holy Spirit in a visible way. The way that Concordant has it is this was "dividing tongues as if of fire," so it seems that something that looked 'like' fire appeared and divided up and came to each of them and sat/rested on them. Now this "fire" should be understandable as God's Spirit, as John the Baptist spoke of it.

Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Heb 12:29 for our God is also a consuming fire.

The "tongues" I believe was also a miraculous sign for this event, in that they did exhibit more than just a visible sign, but the ability the speak other languages that they did not know as well.

Acts 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

So I just look at this most profound occasion of the first coming of the Holy Spirit as being presented in a very spactacular way by God to those first believers as a witness to them and to us as well.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Amen! :)
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"Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy; when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the Lord shall be a light to me."
Micah 7:8

Marky Mark

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Re: "Cloven Tongues as of Fire"
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2012, 01:33:07 PM »

Quote
Act 2:1  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

But WHAT WAS THIS that appears to the Disciples on the day of Pentecost?


Hello Eugene.

Since the tongue is a reference to speech and language and it was split into a clove,or,into two parts,and two in scripture always denotes a witness, I think it would be safe to assume that the cloven tongues 'like as of fire' were a symbolic vision and witness to His Word's which are as a consuming fire burning up the false doctrines of men, therefore bringing into His few chosen elect the beginning process of a Spiritual conversion,beginning on that day of Pentecost,and on every day,that He begins His works in His few chosen elect.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

In other words,we are given a witness in Christ to our Gods speech and language from the fire above when we are filled with the Holy Spirit which is the wonderful works of God.

Act 2:11  Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.


I believe that the following verse give a descriptive witness to Acts 2; 1-4...
 
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


Hope this is of some help.

Peace...Mark
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