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Author Topic: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible  (Read 21677 times)

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adiamondintheson

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wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« on: September 17, 2013, 01:10:57 AM »

My daughter has been separated from her first marriage for over a year now, but is not legally divorced as of yet.  She and another man are wanting to marry and do not want to wait till her divorce can become legal.  They want to share vows with each other, and she wants to take his last name... of course none of it would be legal... they want myself and my husband to witness.  There was a post a while back that kind of dealt with this sort of thing... I've looked and looked and am not finding it.  If you can think of what it might have been or anything pertaining to it... I'd be so grateful. :(
Connie
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Kat

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2013, 10:55:53 AM »


Hi Connie,

I could only find one email that pertained to this, but maybe it will help.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7413.0.html --------

There are a hundred good reasons why I don't get involved in counseling people in divorce and remarriage situations and other legal matters.  One ends up in the same situation as Paul called "endless genealogies."  I assume you may be referring to your own marriage with this question?  Okay, so you marry a woman who was not legally divorced based on her husband committing adultery. They just divorced for whatever reasons. Now then, are you legally married to her and is she legally married to you?  Well........has her husband remarried?  Cause if he did, then he IS committing adultery, seeing that your divorce was apparently not legal in God's eyes.  So now that he is married (legal or not) to another and having sex (adultery) with another woman, she could not legally divorce him on grounds of adultery. But you are already divorced, he is now married, and she now married.  Okay, suppose her husband is not remarried and is not committing adultery, then what?  Should she legally divorce you according to the laws of the law, and remarry her old husband if he will have her?  What if he really does WANT HER?  And what if she really decides that she did love him and wants to divorce you now and remarry her old husband?  Can they do that?  (In "God's" eyes?)
     
    What if you die, and your present wife who is not legally divorced because there was no adultery in her first marriage, wants to remarry a third man, and the third man is legally divorced because his wife did commit adultery, can she marry him if her first husband will not take her back, even though he never did commit adultery on her when they were married?  But what if your wife really did commit adultery in her first marriage, but her first husband forgave her and didn't want to divorce her, but she wanted to divorce him, because she felt guilty for betraying him? Can she divorce him if it was her who committed the adultery, and then marry you?  I could go on like this for hours and hours.
     
    It's just more "endless genealogy," and I won't get involved in it. Furthermore, NO ONE will divorce their mate if they love them, no matter WHAT I would say, so this whole conversation is pretty close to pointless.  Furthermore, I don't believe that I have ever had anyone tell me the absolute truth when asking me to "settle" such convoluted marital situations.
     
    Listen:  You cannot UN-ring a bell.  Sometimes it is not possible to go back and straighten out all of the convoluted mistakes we made in life and such things as marriage and remarriage. Repent for what you have done and for what you are and GO ON with you life.  If a husband BEATS his wife, or ABUSES the children, or does NOT PROVIDE food and shelter for his family, or is totally IMMORAL, or DESERTS his wife, or DIES, then the wife is not expected to remained married to such a man if she does not desire, and the same is true she the wife commit these crimes.  Almost all other things are just excuses to have one's cake and eat it too. I hope this has been a little helpful to you.

    God be with you,
    Ray
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loretta

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2013, 02:58:58 AM »

There is an obvious distinction between being legally divorced under the law of the land and being legally divorced under the law of God.  As Ray so clearly articulated, as the elect of God, we are subject to the latter. No compromise on that.  I can't believe it is so simple as that.  For years, I have researched the subject of divorce and remarriage in the church and have found opinions ranging from the bizarre ( divorced people who remarry should return to their former spouses and bear the consequences ) to the outright immoral sanction of divorce and remarriage.
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Joel

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2013, 01:49:33 AM »

Jesus was pretty clear on the subject as recorded in Matthew 19. And as he said in verse 11, "All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

19:3- The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
19:8- He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
19:9- And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Joel
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G. Driggs

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2013, 08:35:07 AM »

Adultery and fornication happens spiritually in the mind and heart first, before the physical act. A person can be married and never divorce, but they can still be an adulterer. Likewise a person who has never had sex can be a fornicator.

Mat 23:26  You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and of the plate, so that the outside may be clean also.

What good does it do to do the right thing when inside I'am so dirty? I'm not pointing my finger at anyone. This is something I've asked myself and God a lot. I know it doesn't hurt to do the right thing, but if it's just for show God will know.

Like Scriptures say "REPENT" to which Ray agreed with from Kat's post.

Rev 2:20  But I have this against you: that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess [claiming to be inspired], and who is teaching and leading astray my servants and beguiling them into practicing sexual vice and eating food sacrificed to idols.
Rev 2:21  I gave her time to repent, but she has no desire to repent of her immorality [symbolic of idolatry] and refuses to do so.
Rev 2:22  Take note: I will throw her on a bed [of anguish], and those who commit adultery with her [her paramours] I will bring down to pressing distress and severe affliction, unless they turn away their minds from conduct [such as] hers and repent of their doings.
Rev 2:23  And I will strike her children (her proper followers) dead [thoroughly exterminating them]. And all the assemblies (churches) shall recognize and understand that I am He Who searches minds (the thoughts, feelings, and purposes) and the [inmost] hearts, and I will give to each of you [the reward for what you have done] as your work deserves. 

Jesus only taught in parables, (as did the Apostle's) but the high priests of Christianity teaches us to interpret Scriptures literally. Spiritual adultery, fornication, drunkenness and idolatry runs rampant in the Church. God will judge and save all eventually. And from what I understand the teachers will have a stricter judgment.

Maybe this is for another topic, but what i want to know is, which is worse? The spiritual sins committed by the thoughts and the heart, or the act? Or are they equally bad? Seems like a silly question to be asking, but I'm truly confused.  ???
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Kat

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2013, 04:21:16 PM »


Hi George,

Quote
Maybe this is for another topic, but what i want to know is, which is worse? The spiritual sins committed by the thoughts and the heart, or the act? Or are they equally bad?

It is what is in a person's HEART, which is what leads a person to sin eventually.

James 1:14  But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

His "own desires" are what is in his heart...

v. 15  Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

The heart holds our innermost thoughts/desires/lust and we know that the carnal human nature leans towards our lusts, and it is by what is in our heart by which we are judged.

Pro 23:7  For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

Jer 17:9  "The heart is deceitful above all things,
       And desperately wicked;
       Who can know it?

Pro 21:2  Every way of a man is right in his own eyes,
       But the LORD weighs the hearts.

Jer 17:10  I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways,
       According to the fruit of his doings.

Luke 16:15  And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Yes the heart is the crux of the matter, it is where our thoughts develop and it is where our character is stored up. So whatever is there good or wicked, God judges us by that.

Rom 2:5  But because of your hard and impenitent (unrepentant) heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
v. 6  He will render to each one according to his works:
v. 7  to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
v. 8  but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

1Cor 3:13  each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
v. 14  If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
v. 15  If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Oatmeal

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2013, 07:10:44 PM »

I think that the truth of this matter is a lot harder than many people want to acknowledge.  When the disciples understood the matter regarding marriage and divorce, their reaction was: “it is not good to marry”.  It is definitely a good idea to consider carefully before entering into the marriage covenant.  The Scriptures are clear that it is death only that ends this covenant, and that any other marriage that occurs following the original marriage, when one of the original marriage partners is still alive, is a continuous act of adultery.  I guess at this stage it may be considered by some members that this is only my opinion, but in honesty Scripture does appear to back this up.  And it is not that I have always been personally happy with the situation.

It has been claimed that there is an “escape clause” in Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 19:9 – the “except for fornication”.  This, as far as I can see, cannot be referring to sexual unfaithfulness occurring in the marriage proper, that is, occurring after the marriage ceremony.  If it were referring to sexual unfaithfulness in the marriage proper, then Matthew 5:31-32 and Matthew 19:3-12 would be logically inconsistent, and the claim would also not tie up with other Scripture, which would add more inconsistency.

In partial explanation:

Many people believe and are taught that if their marriage partner divorces them and remarries, then they are free to remarry as their partner is committing adultery. However, If God treats the second marriage as adultery then that means that the first marriage is still valid and remains current in God’s eyes.  If it were true that the second marriage frees up the partner of the first marriage to remarry then the second marriage just mentioned can no longer be adultery as the very act of committing this adulterous second marriage means that the first marriage is no longer valid and so immediately that makes the second marriage no longer adultery and also valid.  Am I being logically consistent?

I think logic is telling us that the reference to fornication in Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 19:9 is not referring to sexual unfaithfulness by one of the marriage partners that has taken place after the completion of the marriage ceremony.  In this situation also the “except for fornication” refers to something that the woman has done, not the man.

In Kat’s first post in this thread Ray has made very clear the confusion that is caused when the “except for fornication” is used to mean sexual unfaithfulness occurring after the marriage ceremony has taken place.

Here is a previous post in regard to the matter.  The post remains as originally posted except for removal of one continuous section of a part and full paragraph.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12882.msg113359.html#msg113359

Thus in this current post I have not continued much beyond what has already been posted.

In summary, and in direct regard to your post, I make the point that, according to Scripture, a person can remarry only if their spouse has physically died.  I believe that Scripture, including and beyond that quoted above, clearly backs this up.  Of course I am open to correction.

Oatmeal
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From Micah 7:9:  By the grace and call of Yahweh I will bear the trials of the narrow way, because I have no love, until He fully shows me my sin and I am judged by Him.  He will bring me forth to the light, and I shall see His righteousness.

Dave in Tenn

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2013, 08:03:50 PM »

Was any of this any help to your daughter?
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

adiamondintheson

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2013, 09:35:50 PM »

I really appreciate very much all the replies about this.  It's a tough situation, my daughter hasn't believed in God for many years... was married to an atheist also... who cheated on her in many ways, many times.  It was not a good marriage and lasted 11 years.  It's not her choice that they can't be divorced right away. 
My husband and I have shared many things we've learned here at BT's with her, and it seems that her heart is softening. 
I struggle, as I so want her to be happy for once in her life, and yet I know what the Bible says about things regarding marriage, divorce, remarriage... etc.   As a child myself I was brought up with very rigid, legalistic teaching.  I know that it's NOT what you DO or DON'T do that brings salvation.  It's just very hard letting go of things you've been taught for so many years.  We are just thankful that it's really coming together for us.. the understanding that all will be saved... and to just trust God to do His work.
Thanks you'all...
Connie
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adiamondintheson

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2013, 10:13:14 PM »

Dave... I'm not so sure it was so much for my daughter that I posted... but for my husband and I.  We struggle with the fact they are not married, they come to visit us (from out of town).. do we stand a ground and say, you cannot sleep together here at our home..  Knowing that they cannot be legally married until her divorce is even final.  Then they feel so strongly about being together, they want to have their own little private vows thinking somehow that it will help somehow. 
Sounds so really mixed up... but I have to trust and believe that God is working in their lives to draw them to Himself.  It's just hard to know where we need to stand... or what we need to say or do.

Thanks again everyone.
Connie
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indianabob

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2013, 12:48:07 AM »

Hi Connie,
I offer the following without judgment of any kind. My wife and I have had a similar situation with our children.
If you and your husband are of the same mind about your personal beliefs then you have a firm foundation from which to proceed. You set the example together and allow your daughter and her friend to observe your life and the conduct of it.
You set the parameters of how they or anyone for that matter are expected to conduct themselves within the walls of your house. Example: sleeping separately for a night or two will not harm their relationship I'm sure, so if possible, if it is not already too late to take a stand with them, request respectfully that they respect your sincerely held beliefs and then kindly prepare separate quarters for them during their visit. If they are truly loving and seeking acceptance this will not cause any difficult feelings and it should, we hope, actually cement relationships between you and the new young man. e.g. you accept him with conditions, conditions that you would apply to anyone and everyone.

Please take these thoughts with a spoonful of sugar to sweeten them and know that I have dealt with a similar situation and do understand. Also understand that it is not your place to judge your daughter in this matter. She has to live her life as she chooses. You and your husband then have the understandable right to live your life as you choose and she should be able to handle any differences with a mature attitude. Being your daughter, I'm sure that there can be a meeting of the minds.

Love and hugs from a parent of four beloved, mistake prone children who are struggling to deal with what life has handed them. Indiana Bob  ::)
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theophilus

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2013, 09:33:48 AM »

Can someone define marriage scripturally? Who performed the first marriage? How do men get authority to perform the marriage ceremony?
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cjwood

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2013, 04:21:49 PM »

just wanted to jump in here to say to I-bob that your post reply to connie was a joy to read.  one parent who has walked the same path, helping other parents who finds themselves standing in the same footprints.  common experience is such a helpful tool as we come together to try and figure out how to get through the realities of our physical lives.  i personally have learned much from your posts indianabob, and thank God you are my brother in Christ.

claudia

 
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indianabob

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2013, 01:17:07 AM »

Sincere thanks Connie, much appreciated.
We are ONE in Christ. Bob


just wanted to jump in here to say to I-bob that your post reply to connie was a joy to read.  one parent who has walked the same path, helping other parents who finds themselves standing in the same footprints.  common experience is such a helpful tool as we come together to try and figure out how to get through the realities of our physical lives.  i personally have learned much from your posts indianabob, and thank God you are my brother in Christ.

claudia
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loretta

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2013, 03:18:44 AM »

Quote
just wanted to jump in here to say to I-bob that your post reply to connie was a joy to read.  one parent who has walked the same path, helping other parents who finds themselves standing in the same footprints.  common experience is such a helpful tool as we come together to try and figure out how to get through the realities of our physical lives.  i personally have learned much from your posts indianabob, and thank God you are my brother in Christ.

claudia

Yes, I too learnt much about this rocky road called parenting. tks Indianabob. :)
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loretta

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2013, 05:45:31 AM »

tks for the link, JfK.

I had been pondering the matter for some time now.  Most of us on the forum are lone rangers, our kids are unchurched.  So who will marry (preside over) them?  What about the singles in our club?  Will they have to fly out the minister ? :)

I'm guessing though that the state marriage licence is valid in God's eyes.  We could follow it up with a wedding party though its not the custom in my part of the world.  The church wedding/nuptial is, both among the catholics and evangelicals.  But we're (the Elect) left out in the cold.  Infact it is this fear that keeps people towing the church line, even though they're convinced otherwise.
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adiamondintheson

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2013, 07:51:12 PM »

I want to say a special thanks to everyone who has posted about this topic.  The link to Feb. 2007 Bible Study ... WHAT IS MARRIAGE?....My husband and I read the whole article, and feel more confident about this topic.  How He would have us to operate with our grown children... is still the part we will need to work out.  He's better at enforcing 'rules' than I am... it's very hard for me,especially when you've already gone along with the program.  Just keep praying that God will continue to work His will in all our hearts and lives.  I appreciate the personal testimonies too of those who struggle with similar situations.  LU ALL so much!!!


                                    
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loretta

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2013, 12:42:21 AM »

Quote
What I'm saying is that the ways of the true God are not a problem.  The biblical standards of marriage are not difficult to comply with.

Tks for that lovely post JfK.  It just set me free in my heart to enjoy the broad, sunlit uplands of life .:)

I was baptised and confirmed in the catholic church, and dreamed of that "fairytale wedding" as every young lady does, but it never happened :(.  So I guess my daughters will have the kind of wedding that God wills for them.
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Oatmeal

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2013, 09:52:07 PM »

Why was I not cut to pieces because of what I said in my post in this thread?

Oatmeal
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From Micah 7:9:  By the grace and call of Yahweh I will bear the trials of the narrow way, because I have no love, until He fully shows me my sin and I am judged by Him.  He will bring me forth to the light, and I shall see His righteousness.

Oatmeal

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Re: wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2013, 09:54:22 PM »

I asked because what I said goes against what Ray said about the subject.

Oatmeal
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From Micah 7:9:  By the grace and call of Yahweh I will bear the trials of the narrow way, because I have no love, until He fully shows me my sin and I am judged by Him.  He will bring me forth to the light, and I shall see His righteousness.
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