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Author Topic: Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4  (Read 7582 times)

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Kat

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Re: Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2009, 07:21:43 PM »


Hi Joe, 

May I suggest that Revelation is not in chronological order.  If you consider that with chapter 20 then you can understand things better.

Rev 20:1  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
v. 2  And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
v. 3  and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Christ removes Satan as soon as He returns.  On the same day (whether before, during or after I don't know, but it seems to be in very close proximity) of His return is the first resurrection of the Elect.

Rev 20:5  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended (spurious). This is the first resurrection.
v. 6  Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

This thousand year reign is symbolic of whatever the time period that would be required to bring about repentance and salvation. 

Then we have Satan being released from his prison.  I believe this to be after the reign of Christ and the Elect, as we have in the next verse "the thousand years are ended."  But there seems to be those who have not yet reached salvation on earth "Gog and Magog."

Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
v. 8  and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
v. 9  And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,

I can only speculate on who this "Gog and Magog" is, but whoever they are God's fire judgment is upon them and they shall be saved, but this happens after the thousand year reign.  Now that Satan's work is done he can be cast into the Lake of fire, which of course is now the Elect plus all those that have been brought into the kingdom.

Rev 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Now this is where I believe the chronological order is disrupted, as now we go back to where Christ return and raises the Elect and the rest of the dead which the Elect are to judge.

Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
v. 12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
v. 13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
v. 14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
v. 15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I know that Ray has not discussed this yet, so it is just speculative on my part.  But it does seem to fit as I see it anyway.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Jam 4:14 " whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away."

mharrell08

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Re: Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2009, 07:31:10 PM »

Hi Marques,

Your point about Rev 20:5 is well taken, I wish Ray had expounded on this a little more as this chapter does appear to say that those who are not a part of the first resurrection are raised up after the thousand years.

Here is the entire chapter without verse 5;


 Revelation 20

 1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 5 Deleted


Hello Joe,

It's not the entire verse that is spurious, just the first section: 'But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished'. The part that says, "This is the first resurrection" is scriptural. But I understand what you're saying.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It seems that this is saying that after the Millennium there will be another resurrection, doesn't it? I am open to a better interpretation always....

Oh, I think I see where you're going with that...the part where it says in verse 7 ('And when the thousand years are expired'), you believe that that statement is not limited to Satan being loosed out of his prison, but that everything after that phrase from verse 7 pertains to after the thousand year period, right? And that verse 4 where is says, 'they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years' is past tense (lived and reigned)?

Here is the CLV translation:

Rev 20:4  And I perceived thrones, and they are seated on them, and judgment was granted to them. And the souls of those executed because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who do not worship the wild beast or its image, and did not get the emblem on their forehead and on their hand- they also live and reign with Christ a thousand years

Rev 20:7  And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail


It seems with the KJV (and any like version as well) the past tense of 'lived and reigned' from Rev 20:4 makes it seems as though the 1000 year period passes before the next stated prophecies, but that is not the correct Greek tense. It's more of a statement of fact than of limitation to the 1000 year period. Basically, it's not 'they lived and reigned with Christ 1000 years' THEN the next part...but rather 'they live and reign with Christ 1000 years'; that's it, that's what they are and will do.

Also, when John starts in Rev 20:7, he prophesies on Satan's destiny [v.8 'he shall', v10 'shall be']. But when he starts in Rev 20:11, he not picking up after and stating what's to come after Satan's destiny is fulfilled.

The 1000 year period is prophesied regarding the life & reign of the Elect with Christ as well as Satan's prison period, but the judgment of the wicked in Rev 20:11-15 is not stated to happen after those events. John talks about the life and reign of the Elect and how long Satan is to be imprisoned, but he never says 'then this happens' when talking of the GWT Judgment for the wicked...so there is no 1000 period between the resurrection of the just and unjust.

And if there is, there has to be 2-3 scriptural witnesses that give a spiritual match.


Thanks,

Marques
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2009, 08:51:06 PM »

Hi Marques,

Wow!  :o

Once again we have veered a thread way off its original topic!  ;)

Just to clarify what you are saying I have to ask you if you believe everyone is raised at Christ's return, the saved/elect/chosen into immortal bodies and the rest are raised into their physical bodies and they, along with those who are alive at His coming (but not saved) live through the "thousand years" under the rule of Jesus and His elect? That these dead (out of the earth, sea and "hell") are only spiritually dead but physically alive through the Millennium?

Perhaps I can give a better response if I knew your postion on this.

Thanks in advance.

Peace,

Joe
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2009, 09:49:36 PM »

Quote
It seems that this is saying that after the Millennium there will be another resurrection, doesn't it? I am open to a better interpretation always....

Ray says (but don't know if he has said this publicly) that he believes the (so called) Millennium is the beginning of judgement, which pretty much does away with another resurrection.

Dennis
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 10:05:09 AM by Dennis Vogel »
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kenny

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Re: Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2009, 11:16:36 PM »

thats what i am talking about, now there is some meat, i have not listened to every thing that ray has taught on,but if the the antichrist/ and the dragon is to be judged it stands to reason that our judgement comes then also it really is the only fit, another resurrection i dont see it in the picture.
 
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mharrell08

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Re: Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2009, 01:02:06 AM »

Hi Marques,

Wow!  :o

Once again we have veered a thread way off its original topic!  ;)

Hey Joe,

Well, I thought we got here from the Passover accounts from John's epistle which you stated had a different account than Matt, Mark, & Luke...a different number of days. And then when you stated in Reply #16 the scriptures of 2 Pet 3:8 & Rev 20:5 (though with the spurious passage) as a possible spiritual reality of that missing day from John's epistle, then we got here, I think.  8)

Just to clarify what you are saying I have to ask you if you believe everyone is raised at Christ's return, the saved/elect/chosen into immortal bodies and the rest are raised into their physical bodies and they, along with those who are alive at His coming (but not saved) live through the "thousand years" under the rule of Jesus and His elect? That these dead (out of the earth, sea and "hell") are only spiritually dead but physically alive through the Millennium?

Perhaps I can give a better response if I knew your postion on this.

Yes, the dead from the sea, death, & hades are only spiritually dead (and NOT physically dead) to 'stand before God'. Resurrection means to 'stand' or 'raise up'.

What I believe is what Ray has taught us from the scriptures. The time of the Millennium (or 1000 year period) is for a noble purpose for God's elect:

Gen 22:18  And in thy seed [Christ] shall all the nations of the earth be blessed...

Gal 3:8  ...foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee [thy seed, Christ] shall all nations be blessed.

1 Cor 6:12  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?

1 John 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Ps 104:4 & Heb 1:7  Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire


Excerpt from LOF #12 (http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html):

GOD’S MINISTERS ARE FLAMES OF FIRE

I showed you earlier that Jesus Christ is not only IN the lake of fire, He IS THE LAKE OF FIRE. He is the Divinity in this spiritual fire.

Ponder this:

Like Christ, we too are raised with a "SPIRITUAL body" (I Cor. 15:44).

We are in fact called, "the BODY of Christ" (Eph. 1:23).

We will literally "be LIKE Him [Christ]" (I John 3:2).

God will make us into "ministers [of] FLAMING FIRE" (Psalm 104:4).

We too then will be like our God, "a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).

God promises us that, "…the saints shall JUDGE THE WORLD…" and "we shall JUDGE ANGELS" (I Cor. 6:2-3)!

God tells us WHERE this judgment will take place:

"…they were judged every man according to their works," and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:13 & 15).

Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!

THERE IS NO LITERAL LAKE, AND THERE IS NO LITERAL FIRE. Jesus Christ and His Body of Saints ARE THE LAKE OF JUDGING, PURIFYING, CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!


That noble purpose is to bless ALL the nations. As we will not all be sleep at his coming [1 Cor 15:51 & Matt 16:18], the wicked will also be alive at his coming. Remember, Christ asked, 'when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?[Lk 18:8]. This was asked with a negative connotation attached [see: http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm]...so the wicked will be alive at his coming. And if these wicked are alive at his coming, and to be alive during His reign with His elect, why not resurrect the rest of the wicked to also be alive during the Millennium reign (1000 yr period)?

But again, the elect are to be kings and priests [Ex 19:6 & 1 Pet 2:9], who are to bless and santify all nations...and the nations have to be alive to be blessed and santified, no?

The purpose of the elect, reigning with Christ, having eonian life is why the 2 resurrections seperated by the millenium period does not fit with the rest of scriptures...it is why, when comparing spiritual to spiritual, the phrase 'But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished' does not fit. The 2 resurrections are not seperated by any time period...the reason why they are considered 2 different resurrections is because of what kind of resurrection they are. One is spiritual, the elect being raised in glory...the other physical, the corrupt, carnal minded being raised into that same corruption...'corruption CANNOT inherit incorruption' [1 Cor Ch 15].

The elect are chosen for their high calling for a divine purpose: to bless all the nations...how could they fulfill that purpose with no nations to bless?

I have to agree with Ray on the Millenium being the beginning of Judgment...as I believe the scripture state so, initially.


Thanks,

Marques
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 01:07:19 AM by mharrell08 »
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kenny

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Re: Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2009, 02:08:23 AM »

 Marques,
thanks for the word and the link my friend,
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2009, 09:29:26 AM »

Excellent meat to chew on Dennis and Marquis!

I certainly would like to see Ray do a paper on this subject at some future point as there are so many questions that need to be answered in regard to this subject.

Where I have my biggest problem with all this happening simultaniously is that the salvation works are likened to a Spring and a Fall Harvest, the barley and wheat (spring) harvests certainly do not happen at the same time as the grape, olive, pomegranate, (fall) harvest.

There appears to be scriptural witnesses to more than one resurrection;


Job 33:29 God does all these things to a man twice, even three times,

Job 33:30 to turn back his soul from the pit, that the light of life may shine on him.

1Cor 15:20 But in fact, Christ has been raised from the dead. He is the first of a great harvest of all who have died.

1Cor 15:21 So you see, just as death came into the world through a man, now the resurrection from the dead has begun through another man.

1Cor 15:22 Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life.

1Cor 15:23 But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back.

Please allow me to clarify an earlier point I made here that the differences between the the Synoptic Gospels and the Gospel of John perhaps representing two distinct works of salvation (a two part work) even though only One Sacrifice was required.

Christianity teaches one "chance" at salvation, one judgment, one group being saved, a deeper look into the scriptures tells a whole different story though. (This was my original point)

Ray explains this better than I could actually;



SINNERS SAVED AFTER DEATH

Receiving salvation after one dies is a total impossibility according to Christian teaching. The Scriptural reality is that most of humanity will be saved in judgment after death. It is only the Firstfruits that are saved in this first life before the resurrection to judgment

Now there were many who did believe that Jesus was a man sent from God, and they followed Him. But why? Mostly because of His miracles and healings. They were taken in by His miraculous works. On one occasion Jesus said the multitudes were more interested in the miraculous bread that filled their belly rather than any spiritual food they could have received. But, just as quick as many were to follow Jesus, likewise, many quickly turned from Him. When Jesus told them that, "the flesh profits NOTHING" and "the words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT" (John 6:63), they decided they had enough of this Man: "From that time MANY of His disciples went back, and walked NO MORE with Him" (John 6:66).

And what do we see happening today? I heard again last night Creflo Dollar giving yet another version of the only sermon I believe he has, on how to get rich on this world’s materialism! Over the past year or two I have come upon Mr. Dollar probably thirty or forty times while flipping through the channels. I have never once heard anything pertaining to the gospel of Jesus Christ come out of his mouth—only messages of how to cash in on worldly materialism! Albeit, I must confess that I cannot take more than about five minutes of his preaching at a time. Apparently he believes that materialism is spiritualism! I have nothing against Mr. Dollar. He is a fine looking young man with lots of energy and personality, but I do not believe that he has a clue as to what the gospel of Jesus Christ is all about. The "treasures" that Jesus spoke of were not houses, cars, jewelry, and money. The treasures of heaven are SPIRITUAL.

And so we have those who were called of God and understood some of the good things of the kingdom of God, but then turned away from Christ. We have whole multitudes that heard Christ preach for years and never understood a word He said, and died that way in their sins. And we have whole nations of people who have never heard of the name of Jesus Christ. What will happen to all of these multitudes and nations that died in their sins not being worthy of the kingdom of God? God will JUDGE them, and they will all be saved! That’s what Jesus Christ is—HE’S A SAVIOUR—HE SAVES! He’s the best Saviour there ever was or ever will be. Contrary to popular Christian teaching, Jesus Christ is very good at what He does. He is a PERFECT SAVIOUR. No one will be lost when Jesus sets His hand to SAVE THE WORLD! You can take that to the bank.

http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html

TWO JUDGMENTS BY FIRE

Only two sections of Scripture speak of judging every man’s work in fire. They are Revelation 20 and I Corinthians 3. Earlier in this series we covered many Scriptures showing that Judgment is on the House of God NOW (from the time of the Apostles until the return of Christ), and that there is coming a later judgment at the Great White Throne. All humanity and all angelic messengers will be judged in one of these two judgments by fire.

In Part V we saw how God likens believers to a garden that is to produce fruit. God also likens our spiritual development to that of a building. We are to produce much "spiritual fruit" which will also make us "living stones" in a great temple prepared for God’s dwelling place. We will now continue our study beginning with the Foundation upon which all this spiritual structure is to be built.

http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html

Peace,

Joe


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mharrell08

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Re: Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2009, 10:04:24 AM »

Excellent meat to chew on Dennis and Marquis!

I certainly would like to see Ray do a paper on this subject at some future point as there are so many questions that need to be answered in regard to this subject.

Where I have my biggest problem with all this happening simultaniously is that the salvation works are likened to a Spring and a Fall Harvest, the barley and wheat (spring) harvests certainly do not happen at the same time as the grape, olive, pomegranate, (fall) harvest.

There appears to be scriptural witnesses to more than one resurrection;

There are certainly 2 resurrections Joe...but what makes them distinct from one another is the 'type' of resurrection they are, not a separation of time in between. That's why the Wave Sheaf, Spring, and Fall harvest are shadows of that...because they are different 'types' of harvest not because they occur at different times. And also, the people that participate in these 3 harvests (only Israel participated in Wave Sheaf & Spring while everyone [including Gentiles] participated in the Fall Harvest) gives further distinction [http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html (under 'Three Festivals and Salvation of All')].

Please allow me to clarify an earlier point I made here that the differences between the the Synoptic Gospels and the Gospel of John perhaps representing two distinct works of salvation (a two part work) even though only One Sacrifice was required.

Christianity teaches one "chance" at salvation, one judgment, one group being saved, a deeper look into the scriptures tells a whole different story though. (This was my original point)

The ages or eons is what makes the works of salvation 2 parts...the elect in this age and the rest of humanity in the next age, the Day of the Lord. There is no need for a millenium period to separate after this age and the scriptures don't seem to make that distinction either (considering Rev 20:5's passage being spurious)

Remember, when Christ returns, those that are His will be 'like him' [1 John 3:2] and will not have any carnality as they will be changed [1 Cor 15]. When Paul references those who belong to Christ being raised in 1 Cor 15:23, he then goes on to make the distinction between the resurrections throughout the same chapter...never implying a day or length of time between the two but stating their difference from one another through the type of bodies and characters we will have.

And Job 33:29-30...I get what you're saying but I don't see how that can corroborate 2 resurrections with a day or millennium period in between. I thought the Lord is prophesying about Christ throughout this chapter and His judgment as 'pit' is used literally or figuratively....as the 'does all these things to a man' could be in reference to judgment...especially considering to have 'light of life' on him...I would think one would need to be judged and purged for this light.

I do get what you're saying as a whole and agree it would be great if Ray could teach on this subject more...but this has been a good discussion nonetheless. I think we've beaten this horse pretty good though  :D

Thanks,

Marques
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2009, 10:13:03 AM »


The elect are chosen for their high calling for a divine purpose: to bless all the nations...how could they fulfill that purpose with no nations to bless?


Hi once again Marques,  ;)

I was going to let this rest after my last post but after thinking about the above quote for a while I felt compelled to make a short response.

There will be people alive at Christ's return who are not "changed" to spiritual, immortal beings. Perhaps those are the people/nations that will be blessed by Christ and His elect. I have also speculated that there will be some (OT saints) that will be raised in physical bodies (the dead raised at Christ's resurrection may be a type of this) to witness and experience the Millennial Kingdom that had been promised.

Also when Jesus told one of the thieves on the cross next to Him that he would see Jesus in Paradise (He did not promise this to the other thief or anyone else for that matter as far as we know) that this was not for everyone to experience.

Thanks again for your thoughtful responses.

Peace,

Joe
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2009, 10:15:41 AM »


 I think we've beaten this horse pretty good though  :D


 ;D

Now that is something we are in total agreement on!

Peace Brother,

Joe
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Kat

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Re: Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2009, 05:03:47 PM »



This might be a good time for this from Ray.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html ---

PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS?

This is a rather involved study that I have only a short time to touch upon at this time. I realize that this will probably (as always) raise even more questions in other areas. Please don’t try to speculate yourself in unscriptural solutions to these potential mysteries. I must stay focused on those studies which I deem most import for our site at this time, and don’t have the time to be side-tracked too often.

There are few places in the Old Testament where a resurrection of dead people are mentioned or alluded to.  Jesus stated that the declaration, “Now concerning the resurrection of the dead, did you not read that which is declared to you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living” (Matt. 22:31).

This statement proves that if God is the “God of the living,” but Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead when Jesus mentions them, then there has got to be a resurrection of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

The major prophecy concerning the resurrection is found in Ezek. 37. Here we are shown a valley of “dry bones” which God says represents “the WHOLE House of Israel” -- “And He said unto me, `Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; lo, they are saying: Dried up have our bones, And perished has our hope, We have been cut off by ourselves” (Ezek. 37:11).

So the whole House of Israel dies in a condition of being “perished” with no “hope,” and are “cut off.”  But what does God tell Ezekiel He will do for them?

I am prophesying, and lo, a rushing, and draw near do the bones, bone unto its bone."

Eze 37:8  “And I beheld, and lo, on them [are] sinews [tendons, strength, muscular power], and flesh [muscles, fat, etc.]  has come up, and cover them does skin [the outer covering of a physical body] over above--and spirit there is none in them."

I know of no “spiritual” tendons, muscles, fat or skin, that are put on physical “bones” to remake a “spiritual” man.  This is a PHYSICAL resurrection of the dead, Eze 37:10 “And I have prophesied as He commanded me, and the Spirit comes into them, and they live, and stand on their feet--a very very great force” (Ezek. 37:10).
 
Notice that it takes the spirit from God to give these dried bones life once more. They then “stand on their feet.” This is the exact and precise definition of the word “resurrection.” It means to “stand up” upon one’s feet, but the word itself has nothing to do with being “spiritual” or “immortal” whatsoever.  Jesus raised a little girl and Lazarus from the dead, and they stood up on their feet and lived—they were not made spiritual bodies or given immortality. Likewise those saints resurrected at Christ’s resurrection, were not given spiritual bodies or immortality.

Nowhere are the wicked promised immortality or incorruption, nowhere.  The most thorough study on the resurrection of the saints is found in I Corinthians. Let’s notice a few things that most overlook:

Is the subject of I Corinthians 15, the world?  The salvation of the wicked?  The resurrection of the wicked?  NO.  Let’s read it:

“Moreover, brethren [the world? NO, ‘brethren’] I declare unto YOU the gospel…” (I Cor. 15:1).

“…by which also YOU are saved…” (Verse 2).

“For I delivered unto YOU….” (Verse 3).  Etc.

What is the “order” of the resurrection of which Paul speaks?  “But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST’S at His coming” (Verse 23).

The resurrection taught in this chapter is that of “they that are CHRIST’S,” not the resurrection of the wicked to Judgment.  Pay attention TO THE WORDS!

1Co 15:50  “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

Chapter 15 is speaking of the true Elect Saints of God “inheriting the Kingdom of God.  Is the act of raising the wicked from the dead and act of their “inheriting the Kingdom of God?” I think not.  Will the wicked then “inherit incorruption” at their resurrection?  Well many say “YES, yes they will.”  NO, no they WON’T!  Are men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler and Saddam Hussein, who are among the most “corruptible” men who have ever lived, going to be given bodies that are “incorruptible?”   Do the Scriptures lie when they tell us that “corruption” (as in the above named persons) does NOT “inherit incorruption?”

We are told that a seed must die to give life to a new seed, or grain, or body (Verse 36).

What KIND of new seed comes about from planting a seed that first must die?  1Co 15:37  “And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain”

Are we told what the “other” grain might be that sprouts like “wheat?”  Yes, as a matter of fact, we are:  Mat 13:25  But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

And are these “tares” also gathered into the barns (brought into the Kingdom of God)?  NO, Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest [resurrection] I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles [different ‘groups’ at different ‘burnings’?]  to burn them [in the Lake of Fire]: but gather the wheat into my barn [My KINGDOM].

NO, in the day of harvest, not all will come up “immortal and incorruptible.”

What else do we learn about the resurrection of God’s Elect?  What are some of the features of their newly resurrected bodies?

“…but the glory of the celestial [high, above, heavenly] is one, and the glory of the terrestrial [worldly, EARTHLY] is another” (Verse 40).

Which category do the Elect come in?  Now pay attention:  1Co 15:48-49  As is the earthy, such  ARE  they also that  ARE  earthy: and as is the heavenly, such  ARE  they also that are heavenly.  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, WE SHALL  also bear the image of the heavenly.

Notice that ONLY “we”  [God’s Elect], not “they,”  “…shall bear the image of the heavenly.”  Paul is speaking that “THEY, the earthy,” and “WE, the heavenly,” and only the “we” will “bear the image of the heavenly,” not “they,” the wicked who will be raised as tares to be burned in the Lake of Fire.

Now we can understand verse 50 in proper context:  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption [corrupt men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler, and Saddam Hussein]  inherit incorruption.

The ONLY ones who inherit incorruption are those “WE [who] have borne the image of the earthly [and] shall bear the image of the heavenly.”  And this happens at a specific time:

1Co 15:51  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory”  (I Cor. 15:51-54).

It is the “we” and the “us” that will be changed at the last trump, not the “they” and the “them.”

Should Mao, Adolph, and Saddam be resurrected to incorruptible and immortal bodies, then death would also be “swallowed up in victory” in THEIR LIVES ALSO.  How could they go through the “second DEATH” if “death” would have already been “swallowed up in VICTORY” in their miserable, wicked, vile, and deranged carnal minds?  Such people know nothing of  “the law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus.”  They know only of “law of SIN AND DEATH” (Rom. 8:2).

Notice these verses describing the resurrection of God’s elect:

1Co 15:42-45  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in INCORRUPTION:  It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in GLORY: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in POWER:  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

INCORRUPTION:  Strong’s #861, aphtharsia, “from #862 [un-decaying]; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: immortality, incorruption, sincerity.”

Note:  INCORRUPTIBILITY, UNENDING EXISTENCE, GENUINENESS, IMMORTALITY, INCORRUPTION, SINCERITY

GLORY:  Strong’s #1391, doxa, G1391 From the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literally or figuratively, objectively or subjectively): - dignity, glory (-ious), honor, praise, worship.

Note:  GLORY (AS VERY APPARENT GLORY), DIGNITY, GLORY, GLORIOUS, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP

POWER:  Strong’s #1411, dunamis, From G1410;  “force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.”

Note:  FORCE, MIRACULOUS POWER, ABILITY, ABUNDANCE, MIGHT, MIGHTY, WORKIER OF MIRACLES, POWER, STRENGTH,  (‘violence’ only when referencing an carnal person), MIGHTY (wonderful) WORK

SPIRITUAL:  Strong’s #4152, pneumatikos From G4151;  “non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual.

Note:  NON-CARNAL ETHEREAL (as opposed to gross or daemoniacally) SPIRIT, DIVINELY, SUPER NATURAL, REGENERATE, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL

Now let’s foolishly assume that the wicked are going to be resurrected with “spiritual” bodies. The only place in Scripture that anyone is said to be resurrected with a “spiritual body,” is in these many references in I Cor. 15. So if a resurrected “spiritual body” applies to the unjust and the wicked and the unbelievers, then these attributes which constitute a “spiritual body” resurrection MUST APPLY TO THEM ALSO.  Now then, show me one Scripture anywhere that justifies people like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler, or Saddam Hussein being resurrected with:

INCORRUPTIBILITY, UNENDING EXISTENCE, GENUINENESS, IMMORTALITY, INCORRUPTION, SINCERITY, GLORY (AS VERY APPARENT GLORY), DIGNITY, GLORY, GLORIOUS, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP, FORCE, MIRACULOUS POWER, ABILITY, ABUNDANCE, MIGHT, MIGHTY, WORKER OF MIRACLES, POWER, STRENGTH,  (‘violence’ only when referencing an carnal person), MIGHTY (wonderful) WORK, NON-CARNAL, ETHEREAL, SPIRIT, DIVINELY, SUPER NATURAL, REGENERATE, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL
 
Is there anywhere a Scripture that presents the resurrection of the wicked in such a glorious, and holy, divine light?  I think not. Rather we are presented with this as the characterization of the resurrected wicked to eonian judgment:

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting [eonian] life, and some to shame [rebuke, reproach, disgrace] and everlasting [eonian] contempt [repulsion, aversion, abhorrence].

Is it possible to have a greater contradiction of character traits than this?  No, those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon and will live on into the reign of Jesus Christ with their physical bodies, will not be outdone by the wicked who are raised from their graves. There will not be two communities of non-believers being judged—one in physical bodies, and those among the worst of humanity that have ever lived, being in beautiful, glorious, powerful, incorruptible, SPIRITUAL bodies.  It’s unscriptural nonsense as far as I can see.  Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

God be with you,

Ray

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Jam 4:14 " whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away."

Marky Mark

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Re: Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2009, 06:04:01 PM »

This my brothers and sisters is what we all can look forward to, if it be the Will of the Father.To finish the race and to be accounted for would be as sweet as honey.Can one just imagine the Light coming from the darkness? Shining examples to the corrupt of the world,so that they could see the truth of the Spirit. Would it not be as in the time of our Lord Jesus when he walked the earth and tended the flock and did the will of our Father.What a privilege it would be to reign and work with Jesus in the millennium to bring all of humanity into righteousness for the sake of the Father.Amazing,simply amazing...

INCORRUPTIBILITY, UNENDING EXISTENCE, GENUINENESS, IMMORTALITY, INCORRUPTION, SINCERITY, GLORY (AS VERY APPARENT GLORY), DIGNITY, GLORY, GLORIOUS, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP, FORCE, MIRACULOUS POWER, ABILITY, ABUNDANCE, MIGHT, MIGHTY, WORKER OF MIRACLES, POWER, STRENGTH,  (‘violence’ only when referencing an carnal person), MIGHTY (wonderful) WORK, NON-CARNAL, ETHEREAL, SPIRIT, DIVINELY, SUPER NATURAL, REGENERATE, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL




Peace...Mark


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indianabob

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Re: Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2009, 09:56:19 PM »

Joe and Marques,

Please consider this small addition if it may be of some value.

When Jesus returns to earth to begin his royal rule of the earth there will have been all of the present and perhaps future wars and famines etc.  Jesus will not necessarily by some great miracle transform the earth into a garden of Eden as it was in the beginning.  Isn't it likely that the elect will have a part in gradually transforming the earth over a period of several years or even decades?  We are given to understand that there may be many millions of living carnal humans yet on the earth needing care and feeding and housing as well as spiritual regeneration.  Won't we under Jesus leadership be able to use those millions of people to do the work?  God has always demonstrated a desire to share in the creative process, so won't God continue in that fashion?

So, what should come first?  The physical it seems to me is the primary need.  Once these billion folks are cared for physically and guided to cope with their human needs, we can begin to perform a spiritual work in them.

I suppose my point here is that there will be plenty of work for Jesus and his elect to do without resurrecting all the rest of humanity in the first decade or even the first century.  Think of the dozens of climatic conditions to deal with and the hundreds of languages and dialects and cultures that will need to be adjusted with love and patience.

Of course Jesus will set the pace and of course Jesus is not limited in the scope of his ability, but the living people are limited in their ability to cope with difficult human circumstances AND we have the whole 1000 years or at least some part of it to do God's work on the earth at that time.
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mharrell08

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Re: Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2009, 10:15:14 PM »

So, what should come first?  The physical it seems to me is the primary need.  Once these billion folks are cared for physically and guided to cope with their human needs, we can begin to perform a spiritual work in them.

I'm sorry Bob but the physical is not the primary need...spiritual regeneration, a new heart full of God's grace is what is needed and that is what the scriptures promise. A full stomach and a roof over everyone's head will not change the wickedness in one's heart. Some of the most wicked men & women of this wicked age have had all their physical needs fulfilled...yet have an evil heart of unbelief.

Isa 26:10  Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness...

Isa 26:9  ...for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.



Marques
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indianabob

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Re: Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2009, 11:28:20 PM »

Exactly correct Marques,

Please also consider that the wicked who will still be here and who will not have learned righteousness, will not have been called and that will include the oppressed, the starving and all the populations of Africa, China, South America and even most of babylon who are of the U. S. who will desperately need the help and love of fully trained, spiritually converted and faithful servants of the most high God.  They will not have had any opportunity to learn righteousness prior to that time.  Who are we to teach righteousness if not to the "wicked"?

Isa 26:9;  who will provide the "judgments" in the earth if not the elect of God?

I don't know if you have ever worked with starving, sick, depressed people who don't know who they can trust or what is good, but they certainly will not be in a mood to listen to or practice the counsel we can provide if their guts are racked with pain.  When Jesus was on the earth his first concern was the sick and oppressed and he demonstrated a good approach when he fed the 5000.  Yes he preached to them first, but they only followed him because of the healing miracles he performed and they did not understand until after the resurrection, until the spirit of Christ worked with them and in them.  Even the apostles did not understand although the spirit "dragged" them to Christ.

The physical may not be the primary need in importance, but it certainly is in time order.

Please give some thought to this additional information.

Thanks, Bob

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mharrell08

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Re: Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2009, 12:42:27 AM »

I don't know if you have ever worked with starving, sick, depressed people who don't know who they can trust or what is good, but they certainly will not be in a mood to listen to or practice the counsel we can provide if their guts are racked with pain.  When Jesus was on the earth his first concern was the sick and oppressed and he demonstrated a good approach when he fed the 5000.  Yes he preached to them first, but they only followed him because of the healing miracles he performed and they did not understand until after the resurrection, until the spirit of Christ worked with them and in them.  Even the apostles did not understand although the spirit "dragged" them to Christ.

The physical may not be the primary need in importance, but it certainly is in time order.

Please give some thought to this additional information.

Thanks, Bob


Bob,

Whether the wicked and unbelieving are in 'a mood' to listen and adhere to Kingdom of God is irrelevant...when God's judgments are in the earth, they will learn righteousness; no ifs, ands, or buts about it. I wasn't 'in the mood' when the Lord began to do a work in me...I wasn't seeking him at all. He came and brought me out of the church on His time, not when I was ready or in the mood to listen. I don't know anyone on this forum who got in the mood or ready to follow after Christ before God dragged them out...God dragged us out, THEN we learned to follow.

John 14:12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Greater works than these...greater than feeding the masses, greater than opening the eyes of the blind, greater than healing the sick, even greater than raising the physically dead...the work of God in His elect will be greater than all these as it will be SPIRITUAL.

I suppose my point here is that there will be plenty of work for Jesus and his elect to do without resurrecting all the rest of humanity in the first decade or even the first century.  Think of the dozens of climatic conditions to deal with and the hundreds of languages and dialects and cultures that will need to be adjusted with love and patience.

Of course Jesus will set the pace and of course Jesus is not limited in the scope of his ability, but the living people are limited in their ability to cope with difficult human circumstances AND we have the whole 1000 years or at least some part of it to do God's work on the earth at that time.

I see no reason for Christ and His elect to be limited in any way to only the wicked who are alive at His coming...no scripture stating such. And also Bob, it seems the scriptures that speak of Christ returning with 'wrath & indignation' [Matt 3:7, Lk 3:7, John 3:36, Rom 5:9, Eph 5:6, etc] are ignored in your comments that liken Christ return to a United Nations 'feed & clothe the homeless' act. I'm not trying to knock those kinds of works, but unjust need to be SANCTIFIED and PURGED.

I'm going to stop now as my input into this thread has gone far enough...


Marques
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